E30 M3 or AP1 S2000?
#61
10-21-2008, 08:53 PM
I love my Ap1.
Keep in mind, the S2000 was never meant to be a long production vehicle. Limited numbers, manual gearbox only, no luxury features. It is an essential sports car. Nothing quite sings the same as an s2000 once in vtec. Especially with an intake and exhaust.
aside from the fact that stock handling is incredibly good, and simple things like good tires can win autocross events (of course with a good driver)...............
and if you've paid attention, the unlimited and limited RWD winners in most Time Attack events are S2000s, and are usually setting better times than the unlimited AWD evos and STI's.
potential..........
Keep in mind, the S2000 was never meant to be a long production vehicle. Limited numbers, manual gearbox only, no luxury features. It is an essential sports car. Nothing quite sings the same as an s2000 once in vtec. Especially with an intake and exhaust.
aside from the fact that stock handling is incredibly good, and simple things like good tires can win autocross events (of course with a good driver)...............
and if you've paid attention, the unlimited and limited RWD winners in most Time Attack events are S2000s, and are usually setting better times than the unlimited AWD evos and STI's.
potential..........
#62
10-21-2008, 09:13 PM
i'll give you that they have potential. after massive investment. i also think that "usually setting better times" is overstatement. they have, recently, in the unlimited class on occasion and go almost tit for tat with evos. i don't think the S2K is competing all that well in the limited and street level events compared to the awd class, indicative that out of the box and in the modest to moderate investment league, the S2K won't hang with an evo. with the heavy hitters in the evo community showing up less at redline TA and instead setting silly times in hill climbs, drag race, road rally, rally, normal driving in bad weather, and putting snow tires on pretty much the most advanced AWD system in the performance driving world, i don't think that you can fairly say that the S2K has more potential than an evo. it has potential, but it still wouldn't be my platform of choice, at any level of investment. there are better platforms available.
As stated, the fastest track cars in Japan right now struggle to keep in S2000's. Yes, they require a lot of investment to get to track record setting paces, but right out of the box they are one of the best track ready cars available. This is also VERY dependent on track format, and layout. Your definition of potential may be a little different than mine, but it is all dependent on what type of racing you are doing.
YouTube - J'S RACING S2000 vs EVO WRC 05
YouTube - S2000 Amuse Touge Monster Vs Kazama S15 Drift
Also, take a look at the track records of well known japanese circuits and tell me what you see.
#63
10-21-2008, 09:16 PM
I'll comment having owned both cars, and still have an AP2 in the garage.
First, to the guy who said it wasn't a "genuine race car", I'll point out that in recent videos of the japanese driving like idiots on public roadways, a coilover, bolt-on S2000 was keeping up on a canyon run with a R35 GTR. The S2000 is a FANTASTIC platform for a track car, but gets a little on the expensive side.
What most people need to see here is that you are comparing cars 10 years apart, and 10 years in technology. The S2000 is going to start everytime, you aren't going to have major issues, and getting a lot of performance per $ isn't bad at all, as long as you have a little $. The E30 is also a fantastic platform, lightweight, 50/50, and a very good suspension tune. I think you really need to drive both cars. Even after owning faster cars (yes I have had my share of AWD turbo boxes), there is no car than can compare to the cockpit/shifter/aggressiveness of the S2000. It will stay in my garage till something better comes, and I think I'll still be waiting. I had high hopes for the 135i, and almost had a deposit on one, but once I saw the curb weight it was out of the question.
So really the question needs to be asked, are you looking for a fun, lightweight RWD car that is going to get attention from car enthusiasts? If so, E30. Or are you looking for a car that is going to be ready on every track day, has a mission to kill you, and is an all out street race car? If so, S2000.
And one more comment, anyone who begs to differ on the S2000 being a street race car, drive one on a closed circuit, you'll change your mind.
First, to the guy who said it wasn't a "genuine race car", I'll point out that in recent videos of the japanese driving like idiots on public roadways, a coilover, bolt-on S2000 was keeping up on a canyon run with a R35 GTR. The S2000 is a FANTASTIC platform for a track car, but gets a little on the expensive side.
What most people need to see here is that you are comparing cars 10 years apart, and 10 years in technology. The S2000 is going to start everytime, you aren't going to have major issues, and getting a lot of performance per $ isn't bad at all, as long as you have a little $. The E30 is also a fantastic platform, lightweight, 50/50, and a very good suspension tune. I think you really need to drive both cars. Even after owning faster cars (yes I have had my share of AWD turbo boxes), there is no car than can compare to the cockpit/shifter/aggressiveness of the S2000. It will stay in my garage till something better comes, and I think I'll still be waiting. I had high hopes for the 135i, and almost had a deposit on one, but once I saw the curb weight it was out of the question.
So really the question needs to be asked, are you looking for a fun, lightweight RWD car that is going to get attention from car enthusiasts? If so, E30. Or are you looking for a car that is going to be ready on every track day, has a mission to kill you, and is an all out street race car? If so, S2000.
And one more comment, anyone who begs to differ on the S2000 being a street race car, drive one on a closed circuit, you'll change your mind.
anyways, believe me, i know first hand the difference between a honda and an old (and the new ones, too) bmw. getting the locking system replaced on the E30+bmw service people charging gucci prices on their labor = stupididty.
however, i did say here that i'm not looking for a race car anymore. i already had one, it set stupid fast times on an exhaust and a tune, pulled over 1.0g in steady state cornering on street tires. thus far, i have been able to drive the M3 with the throttle wide open with very predictable results. i can get it to slide around on demand without absolutely insane speeds. i didn't have that confidence with the S2K, but to be fair i have more seat time actually driving hard in the M3 now than i do in the S2K. out of curiousity, did you feel that confident in your S2K as you did your E30 M3, or does the S2K inspire more confidence?
#64
10-21-2008, 09:22 PM
As stated, the fastest track cars in Japan right now struggle to keep in S2000's. Yes, they require a lot of investment to get to track record setting paces, but right out of the box they are one of the best track ready cars available. This is also VERY dependent on track format, and layout. Your definition of potential may be a little different than mine, but it is all dependent on what type of racing you are doing.
YouTube - J'S RACING S2000 vs EVO WRC 05
YouTube - S2000 Amuse Touge Monster Vs Kazama S15 Drift
Also, take a look at the track records of well known japanese circuits and tell me what you see.
YouTube - J'S RACING S2000 vs EVO WRC 05
YouTube - S2000 Amuse Touge Monster Vs Kazama S15 Drift
Also, take a look at the track records of well known japanese circuits and tell me what you see.
#65
10-21-2008, 09:46 PM
ok, just to clarify my above quote:
the S2K had 20 more PS and both cars weighed 1230kg. the evo had worse than all season tires; it had tires that were appropriate for snow. the S2K should have put WAAAAAY more of a gap than that. seriously, that is really bad.
the S2K had 20 more PS and both cars weighed 1230kg. the evo had worse than all season tires; it had tires that were appropriate for snow. the S2K should have put WAAAAAY more of a gap than that. seriously, that is really bad.
#66
10-21-2008, 10:24 PM
i'll give you that they have potential. after massive investment. i also think that "usually setting better times" is overstatement. they have, recently, in the unlimited class on occasion and go almost tit for tat with evos. i don't think the S2K is competing all that well in the limited and street level events compared to the awd class, indicative that out of the box and in the modest to moderate investment league, the S2K won't hang with an evo. with the heavy hitters in the evo community showing up less at redline TA and instead setting silly times in hill climbs, drag race, road rally, rally, normal driving in bad weather, and putting snow tires on pretty much the most advanced AWD system in the performance driving world, i don't think that you can fairly say that the S2K has more potential than an evo. it has potential, but it still wouldn't be my platform of choice, at any level of investment. there are better platforms available.
I disagree, I don't think much investment is necessary to get excellent results from S2000's. Look at SCC's recent suspension test of various products all on S2000's.
Now tell me a 10+ year old car is going to fare better, especially a BMW, be modded cheaper, be more reliable, and have a better chassis out of the box? If I'm not mistaken, modding beamers makes S2000 boutique parts prices look like wal-mart sale prices.
If you've never owned an S2000, driven one, or raced one, don't underestimate it.
FWIW, I used to own a 400whp turbo 350z decked out, Nismo suspension, Hotchkis sway bars, Wilwood 6pot front brake upgrade, Motul rbf brake fluid, Nismo exhaust, 18x9's front and 18x10s rear, custom oil cooler, and defi gauges. It was ready and raring for road course action. But it never had the feel my AP1 has. Obviously it had way more power, but in the 350z, that much power just means it loves to snap oversteer more. Not cool.
I'd venture a guess to say that the S2000 is one of the few factory cars made today that is so oversteer happy on purpose, without obscene power.
#68
10-21-2008, 11:40 PM
I think it's Inline Pro that is running stock suspension in their 650 or 750whp s2000 drag car running 9.30's.
I disagree, I don't think much investment is necessary to get excellent results from S2000's. Look at SCC's recent suspension test of various products all on S2000's.
Now tell me a 10+ year old car is going to fare better, especially a BMW, be modded cheaper, be more reliable, and have a better chassis out of the box? If I'm not mistaken, modding beamers makes S2000 boutique parts prices look like wal-mart sale prices.
If you've never owned an S2000, driven one, or raced one, don't underestimate it.
FWIW, I used to own a 400whp turbo 350z decked out, Nismo suspension, Hotchkis sway bars, Wilwood 6pot front brake upgrade, Motul rbf brake fluid, Nismo exhaust, 18x9's front and 18x10s rear, custom oil cooler, and defi gauges. It was ready and raring for road course action. But it never had the feel my AP1 has. Obviously it had way more power, but in the 350z, that much power just means it loves to snap oversteer more. Not cool.
I'd venture a guess to say that the S2000 is one of the few factory cars made today that is so oversteer happy on purpose, without obscene power.
I disagree, I don't think much investment is necessary to get excellent results from S2000's. Look at SCC's recent suspension test of various products all on S2000's.
Now tell me a 10+ year old car is going to fare better, especially a BMW, be modded cheaper, be more reliable, and have a better chassis out of the box? If I'm not mistaken, modding beamers makes S2000 boutique parts prices look like wal-mart sale prices.
If you've never owned an S2000, driven one, or raced one, don't underestimate it.
FWIW, I used to own a 400whp turbo 350z decked out, Nismo suspension, Hotchkis sway bars, Wilwood 6pot front brake upgrade, Motul rbf brake fluid, Nismo exhaust, 18x9's front and 18x10s rear, custom oil cooler, and defi gauges. It was ready and raring for road course action. But it never had the feel my AP1 has. Obviously it had way more power, but in the 350z, that much power just means it loves to snap oversteer more. Not cool.
I'd venture a guess to say that the S2000 is one of the few factory cars made today that is so oversteer happy on purpose, without obscene power.
i'm talking about the S2K requiring more money per amount of performance than something like the evo, especially evident in the lower investment levels. evos need brake pads, fluid, an exhaust, and a tune and cut low 12s 1/4 mile times and will lap all day long on 95% OE equipment. the stock suspension handles so predictably even with the 340whp that the stock turbo produces that even newbs in almost stock evos make S2K guys wonder why they didn't get an evo (sounds biased, but it's a true story).
Last edited by kennef; 10-21-2008 at 11:44 PM.
#70
10-25-2008, 11:47 PM
pics soon. unfortunately, the car is in the shop. getting locks replaced and some new power steering lines. frustrating because all i want to do is goof around in that car rather than have it hang out in a shop getting locks and spend stupid money for what is, at the end of the day, a bmw. for everyone that said i told you so, you're right.
when i get back in the car and i get to drive it like i hate it, i'll let you guys know. in the mean time, i'm driving my e34 535i with 5 spd trans, black on black, with DOT legal r-comps. when the tires are cold, it has enough power for power-on oversteer. and when i get to experiment, i have found that big old luxury sedan is fluent in trail braking and four wheel slides. it's just incredible to me that such a device could be so fun, too.
when i get back in the car and i get to drive it like i hate it, i'll let you guys know. in the mean time, i'm driving my e34 535i with 5 spd trans, black on black, with DOT legal r-comps. when the tires are cold, it has enough power for power-on oversteer. and when i get to experiment, i have found that big old luxury sedan is fluent in trail braking and four wheel slides. it's just incredible to me that such a device could be so fun, too.
#71
10-26-2008, 12:04 AM
pics soon. unfortunately, the car is in the shop. getting locks replaced and some new power steering lines. frustrating because all i want to do is goof around in that car rather than have it hang out in a shop getting locks and spend stupid money for what is, at the end of the day, a bmw. for everyone that said i told you so, you're right.
And i don't blame you for getting an E30, that's what you wanted. I used to own a porsche, and i loved that car. Do i miss it, Yeah. Would i own another one, Yeah.
Last edited by The BOM; 10-26-2008 at 12:17 AM.
#72
10-26-2008, 05:28 PM
well, certainly appreciate it. i knew that it would have issues that would have to be addressed. i'm hoping that this will be the last of it; motor is rebuilt with plenty of service life left, the bushings and mounts of the car were checked out and they look serviceable, dampers are relatively fresh. i think it is in mechanically sound shape with old car problems like switches, for example.
but when it gets back, i am going to drive it like i intend to break it. ultimately it's just a bmw, and an old one at that.
but when it gets back, i am going to drive it like i intend to break it. ultimately it's just a bmw, and an old one at that.
#73
10-31-2008, 02:02 PM
got the car back yesterday. for those of you that may have the opportunity to do it, let me advocate the theraputic value of a lightweight rear wheel drive car. track day tomorrow, can't wait!
#75
11-02-2008, 07:45 PM
well, made it back in one piece. drove the car fairly hard, not too hard as i thought balling up a "new" car on the first outing would be hard to get over. but holy carp, that car was FUN. i'll toot my own horn for a little - i was really pleased that i was able to get the car to rotate within this first outing. so far, i can tell you this much - the car is definitely a great car to learn in. it's got this combination of the kid that eggs you on to keep doing whatever bad you're doing, and do more of it plus a coach that gives you quality feedback when you're doing it right and doing it wrong.
there was a guy in my group with a nicely prepped miata, he's got some video of when he was following around.
there was a guy in my group with a nicely prepped miata, he's got some video of when he was following around.
#76
11-04-2008, 10:33 PM
#79
02-19-2009, 07:11 PM
3 month update: toyo RA1s (225/15) all around. there are a handful of magazines out there that proclaim the E30 M3 as the greatest M car of all, one mag that claims it in the top 5 of sports cars of all time. i'm not totally decided. overrated is what comes to mind, honestly, where the car is more myth/ legend than fact. we'll see. nowadays, the RA1s have more grip than i have balls so maybe i'll go back to the bald all seasons that i had before that slid around so easily.
#80
02-19-2009, 07:26 PM
3 month update: toyo RA1s (225/15) all around. there are a handful of magazines out there that proclaim the E30 M3 as the greatest M car of all, one mag that claims it in the top 5 of sports cars of all time. i'm not totally decided. overrated is what comes to mind, honestly, where the car is more myth/ legend than fact. we'll see. nowadays, the RA1s have more grip than i have balls so maybe i'll go back to the bald all seasons that i had before that slid around so easily.