On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 04:02:39 GMT, slim <pickin's@nyc.rr.com> wrote:

>
>
>Group question!
>
>(btw...THANKS to everyone on the wiper question)
>
>I only have 60K miles on the car, mostly city driving,
>when can I expect to have to replace the shocks and/or
>struts?
>
>The ride and handling are still good.
>
>Do the shocks and struts just "blow out" suddenly,
>or do they deteriorate quickly over a period of time?

Depends where you live but that suspension system is prone to broken front
springs in the frost belt - the spring breaks just where it enters the
perch on the shock. Because of where the break is, you probably won't even
notice any difference in ride/handling but you might hear a "doink" when
you get out of the car on the side with the break; you'd definitely hear
the "doink... doink" when you jack the front up. The break *can* put some
side force on the shock which will wear it out quicker.

Unless you drive on rough roads a lot, the shocks could last the life of
the car... or at least till suspension ball joints or bushings need
replaced, i.e. well into the 100-200K mile range. BTW the often-mentioned
bounce test doesn't tell you anything about shock absorber condition,
unless they're really shot - a better criterion is extended stopping
distance on a rippled surface... or wallowing on corners and freeway
undulations.

Note that with the Honda double-wishbone setup, the shock absorber only has
to do one thing: damp suspension motions... unlike a MacPherson strut
system where the shock turns with the steering, acts as a suspension
locating member and gets all sorts of other stresses from those actions....
damn Earle MacPherson.:-)

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

 

George Macdonald wrote:

> Depends where you live but that suspension system is prone to broken front
> springs in the frost belt - the spring breaks just where it enters the
> perch on the shock. Because of where the break is, you probably won't even
> notice any difference in ride/handling but you might hear a "doink" when
> you get out of the car on the side with the break; you'd definitely hear
> the "doink... doink" when you jack the front up. The break *can* put some
> side force on the shock which will wear it out quicker.
>
The only time I broke a spring on my '93 Accord, it was at the other end of
the coil, at the top where it enters the strut mount. But I think this was
the result of that corner of the car jumping a huge curb while swerving to
avoid a bad driver.


> damn Earle MacPherson.:-)
>
I'm not fully awake yet. I thought this said "damn Elle McPherson". :-)

 

George, it's great to have you back!

"George Macdonald" wrote

> Depends where you live but that suspension system is prone to broken front
> springs in the frost belt - the spring breaks just where it enters the
> perch on the shock.

 

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:45:58 -0400, Imminent Vengeance <me@privacy.net>
wrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>
>> Depends where you live but that suspension system is prone to broken front
>> springs in the frost belt - the spring breaks just where it enters the
>> perch on the shock. Because of where the break is, you probably won't even
>> notice any difference in ride/handling but you might hear a "doink" when
>> you get out of the car on the side with the break; you'd definitely hear
>> the "doink... doink" when you jack the front up. The break *can* put some
>> side force on the shock which will wear it out quicker.
>>
>The only time I broke a spring on my '93 Accord, it was at the other end of
>the coil, at the top where it enters the strut mount. But I think this was
>the result of that corner of the car jumping a huge curb while swerving to
>avoid a bad driver.

The break often happens on a violent bump but the root cause is usually
weakening of the metal due to corrosion where water/salt gets through a
hole in the epoxy coating of the spring. The upper spring seat has a
rubber doughnut in it so there's no wear of the epoxy there. I've heard of
the upper end going but AFAIK the lower is more common because of epoxy
wearing away where it contacts the metal of the perch. If you live in a
"corrosion area" it's worth checking springs for nicks in the epoxy...
which *can* be caused by some of the (cruder) tools used to compress the
spring, e.g. when swapping shocks.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

 

George Macdonald wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:45:58 -0400, Imminent Vengeance <me@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>George Macdonald wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Depends where you live but that suspension system is prone to broken front
>>>springs in the frost belt - the spring breaks just where it enters the
>>>perch on the shock. Because of where the break is, you probably won't even
>>>notice any difference in ride/handling but you might hear a "doink" when
>>>you get out of the car on the side with the break; you'd definitely hear
>>>the "doink... doink" when you jack the front up. The break *can* put some
>>>side force on the shock which will wear it out quicker.
>>>
>>
>>The only time I broke a spring on my '93 Accord, it was at the other end of
>>the coil, at the top where it enters the strut mount. But I think this was
>>the result of that corner of the car jumping a huge curb while swerving to
>>avoid a bad driver.
>
>
> The break often happens on a violent bump but the root cause is usually
> weakening of the metal due to corrosion where water/salt gets through a
> hole in the epoxy coating of the spring. The upper spring seat has a
> rubber doughnut in it so there's no wear of the epoxy there. I've heard of
> the upper end going but AFAIK the lower is more common because of epoxy
> wearing away where it contacts the metal of the perch. If you live in a
> "corrosion area" it's worth checking springs for nicks in the epoxy...
> which *can* be caused by some of the (cruder) tools used to compress the
> spring, e.g. when swapping shocks.
>
i've seen brand new springs with such nicks. bad [neglectful] handling
handling at the factory. as you say, corrosion pitting starts & that
causes a stress riser that initiates fatigue. it's the fatigue cracking
that kills the spring.

 

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 05:56:59 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:45:58 -0400, Imminent Vengeance <me@privacy.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>George Macdonald wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Depends where you live but that suspension system is prone to broken front
>>>>springs in the frost belt - the spring breaks just where it enters the
>>>>perch on the shock. Because of where the break is, you probably won't even
>>>>notice any difference in ride/handling but you might hear a "doink" when
>>>>you get out of the car on the side with the break; you'd definitely hear
>>>>the "doink... doink" when you jack the front up. The break *can* put some
>>>>side force on the shock which will wear it out quicker.
>>>>
>>>
>>>The only time I broke a spring on my '93 Accord, it was at the other end of
>>>the coil, at the top where it enters the strut mount. But I think this was
>>>the result of that corner of the car jumping a huge curb while swerving to
>>>avoid a bad driver.
>>
>>
>> The break often happens on a violent bump but the root cause is usually
>> weakening of the metal due to corrosion where water/salt gets through a
>> hole in the epoxy coating of the spring. The upper spring seat has a
>> rubber doughnut in it so there's no wear of the epoxy there. I've heard of
>> the upper end going but AFAIK the lower is more common because of epoxy
>> wearing away where it contacts the metal of the perch. If you live in a
>> "corrosion area" it's worth checking springs for nicks in the epoxy...
>> which *can* be caused by some of the (cruder) tools used to compress the
>> spring, e.g. when swapping shocks.
>>
>i've seen brand new springs with such nicks. bad [neglectful] handling
>handling at the factory. as you say, corrosion pitting starts & that
>causes a stress riser that initiates fatigue. it's the fatigue cracking
>that kills the spring.

Funny thing is I've always thought that spring metal can easily be made
fairly corrosion resistant. If Honda thinks they can skip that because of
the epoxy coating, somebody there is dreaming. The Lyle tool I used to
replace my springs really did a number on the brand new spring coating -
tried to patch with epoxy glue and hoping it'll hold for a bit.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

 

George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in
news:evp561ts07tcmjkecn7at6src6idb5cu9t@4ax.com:


> The break often happens on a violent bump but the root cause is
> usually weakening of the metal due to corrosion where water/salt gets
> through a hole in the epoxy coating of the spring. The upper spring
> seat has a rubber doughnut in it so there's no wear of the epoxy
> there. I've heard of the upper end going



That's where mine broke.

And mine were silent; no *doink* noise. Never even knew until I checked
than at the next brake service.

It's funny, but the replacement springs now have more miles and years on
them than the originals that broke. I wonder if Honda fixed a quality
problem somewhere...

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

George Macdonald wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 05:56:59 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
>>George Macdonald wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:45:58 -0400, Imminent Vengeance <me@privacy.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>George Macdonald wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Depends where you live but that suspension system is prone to broken front
>>>>>springs in the frost belt - the spring breaks just where it enters the
>>>>>perch on the shock. Because of where the break is, you probably won't even
>>>>>notice any difference in ride/handling but you might hear a "doink" when
>>>>>you get out of the car on the side with the break; you'd definitely hear
>>>>>the "doink... doink" when you jack the front up. The break *can* put some
>>>>>side force on the shock which will wear it out quicker.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The only time I broke a spring on my '93 Accord, it was at the other end of
>>>>the coil, at the top where it enters the strut mount. But I think this was
>>>>the result of that corner of the car jumping a huge curb while swerving to
>>>>avoid a bad driver.
>>>
>>>
>>>The break often happens on a violent bump but the root cause is usually
>>>weakening of the metal due to corrosion where water/salt gets through a
>>>hole in the epoxy coating of the spring. The upper spring seat has a
>>>rubber doughnut in it so there's no wear of the epoxy there. I've heard of
>>>the upper end going but AFAIK the lower is more common because of epoxy
>>>wearing away where it contacts the metal of the perch. If you live in a
>>>"corrosion area" it's worth checking springs for nicks in the epoxy...
>>>which *can* be caused by some of the (cruder) tools used to compress the
>>>spring, e.g. when swapping shocks.
>>>
>>
>>i've seen brand new springs with such nicks. bad [neglectful] handling
>>handling at the factory. as you say, corrosion pitting starts & that
>>causes a stress riser that initiates fatigue. it's the fatigue cracking
>>that kills the spring.
>
>
> Funny thing is I've always thought that spring metal can easily be made
> fairly corrosion resistant.

sure, there's all kinds of non-ferrous springs, but they're fiercely
expensive. i know honda springs don't seem "cheap", but believe me,
they are compared to the alternatives. also bear in mind that steel is
relatively high modulus compared to other materials and silicon/carbon
steel typically used in auto springs has a very high yield point
compared to most fatigue resistant stainless steels. lastly, spring
wire has to be comparatively soft for the forming phase, then heat
treatable to become hard and resistant to yielding. stainless steels
exist that have these kinds of hardening reactions, but they're a big
step up in cost.

> If Honda thinks they can skip that because of
> the epoxy coating, somebody there is dreaming. The Lyle tool I used to
> replace my springs really did a number on the brand new spring coating -
> tried to patch with epoxy glue and hoping it'll hold for a bit.
>
just rust resistant paint works fine. trouble is, once you have some
corrosion, you have pitting & therefore potential fatigue crack
initiation. strictly speaking, springs in that condition should be
replaced, but i can't say i'm a strict adherant to that rule. depends
on mileage & condition.

interesting you mention the lisle tool. i was extremely unimpressed
with the principle of that device, for the reasons you're describing
happened. i therefore built my own - does not touch the spring at all!
i'll email a photo to tegger.

 

On 19 Apr 2005 12:55:43 GMT, "TeGGer®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:

>George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in
>news:evp561ts07tcmjkecn7at6src6idb5cu9t@4ax.com :
>
>
>> The break often happens on a violent bump but the root cause is
>> usually weakening of the metal due to corrosion where water/salt gets
>> through a hole in the epoxy coating of the spring. The upper spring
>> seat has a rubber doughnut in it so there's no wear of the epoxy
>> there. I've heard of the upper end going
>
>
>
>That's where mine broke.
>
>And mine were silent; no *doink* noise. Never even knew until I checked
>than at the next brake service.
>
>It's funny, but the replacement springs now have more miles and years on
>them than the originals that broke. I wonder if Honda fixed a quality
>problem somewhere...

It's possible that you had one of the nicks mentioned by Jim Beam in the
epoxy.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

 

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:14:00 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 05:56:59 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>George Macdonald wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:45:58 -0400, Imminent Vengeance <me@privacy.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>George Macdonald wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Depends where you live but that suspension system is prone to broken front
>>>>>>springs in the frost belt - the spring breaks just where it enters the
>>>>>>perch on the shock. Because of where the break is, you probably won't even
>>>>>>notice any difference in ride/handling but you might hear a "doink" when
>>>>>>you get out of the car on the side with the break; you'd definitely hear
>>>>>>the "doink... doink" when you jack the front up. The break *can* put some
>>>>>>side force on the shock which will wear it out quicker.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The only time I broke a spring on my '93 Accord, it was at the other end of
>>>>>the coil, at the top where it enters the strut mount. But I think this was
>>>>>the result of that corner of the car jumping a huge curb while swerving to
>>>>>avoid a bad driver.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The break often happens on a violent bump but the root cause is usually
>>>>weakening of the metal due to corrosion where water/salt gets through a
>>>>hole in the epoxy coating of the spring. The upper spring seat has a
>>>>rubber doughnut in it so there's no wear of the epoxy there. I've heard of
>>>>the upper end going but AFAIK the lower is more common because of epoxy
>>>>wearing away where it contacts the metal of the perch. If you live in a
>>>>"corrosion area" it's worth checking springs for nicks in the epoxy...
>>>>which *can* be caused by some of the (cruder) tools used to compress the
>>>>spring, e.g. when swapping shocks.
>>>>
>>>
>>>i've seen brand new springs with such nicks. bad [neglectful] handling
>>>handling at the factory. as you say, corrosion pitting starts & that
>>>causes a stress riser that initiates fatigue. it's the fatigue cracking
>>>that kills the spring.
>>
>>
>> Funny thing is I've always thought that spring metal can easily be made
>> fairly corrosion resistant.
>
>sure, there's all kinds of non-ferrous springs, but they're fiercely
>expensive. i know honda springs don't seem "cheap", but believe me,
>they are compared to the alternatives. also bear in mind that steel is
>relatively high modulus compared to other materials and silicon/carbon
>steel typically used in auto springs has a very high yield point
>compared to most fatigue resistant stainless steels. lastly, spring
>wire has to be comparatively soft for the forming phase, then heat
>treatable to become hard and resistant to yielding. stainless steels
>exist that have these kinds of hardening reactions, but they're a big
>step up in cost.

I wasn't talking about stainless or non-ferrous - there are alloys of of
"steel" which corrode much more slowly than others. This is a problem
which, while not unique to Honda, is a rather glaring one... not to mention
that the epoxy coating seems like a bad idea, given the evidence.

>> If Honda thinks they can skip that because of
>> the epoxy coating, somebody there is dreaming. The Lyle tool I used to
>> replace my springs really did a number on the brand new spring coating -
>> tried to patch with epoxy glue and hoping it'll hold for a bit.
>>
>just rust resistant paint works fine. trouble is, once you have some
>corrosion, you have pitting & therefore potential fatigue crack
>initiation. strictly speaking, springs in that condition should be
>replaced, but i can't say i'm a strict adherant to that rule. depends
>on mileage & condition.

Did you miss something here? This was a brand new spring which was marred
by the tool - no question of corrosion having started.

>interesting you mention the lisle tool. i was extremely unimpressed
>with the principle of that device, for the reasons you're describing
>happened. i therefore built my own - does not touch the spring at all!
> i'll email a photo to tegger.

I chose it because it *looks* safer than some others, since the loops
cannot break loose from the spring coils under load. I found on use that
the screws "machine" a "thread" into the collars, thus reducing their
effective thickness - IOW safety may not be what it appears.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

 

George Macdonald wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:14:00 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
>>George Macdonald wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 05:56:59 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>George Macdonald wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:45:58 -0400, Imminent Vengeance <me@privacy.net>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>George Macdonald wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Depends where you live but that suspension system is prone to broken front
>>>>>>>springs in the frost belt - the spring breaks just where it enters the
>>>>>>>perch on the shock. Because of where the break is, you probably won't even
>>>>>>>notice any difference in ride/handling but you might hear a "doink" when
>>>>>>>you get out of the car on the side with the break; you'd definitely hear
>>>>>>>the "doink... doink" when you jack the front up. The break *can* put some
>>>>>>>side force on the shock which will wear it out quicker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The only time I broke a spring on my '93 Accord, it was at the other end of
>>>>>>the coil, at the top where it enters the strut mount. But I think this was
>>>>>>the result of that corner of the car jumping a huge curb while swerving to
>>>>>>avoid a bad driver.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The break often happens on a violent bump but the root cause is usually
>>>>>weakening of the metal due to corrosion where water/salt gets through a
>>>>>hole in the epoxy coating of the spring. The upper spring seat has a
>>>>>rubber doughnut in it so there's no wear of the epoxy there. I've heard of
>>>>>the upper end going but AFAIK the lower is more common because of epoxy
>>>>>wearing away where it contacts the metal of the perch. If you live in a
>>>>>"corrosion area" it's worth checking springs for nicks in the epoxy...
>>>>>which *can* be caused by some of the (cruder) tools used to compress the
>>>>>spring, e.g. when swapping shocks.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>i've seen brand new springs with such nicks. bad [neglectful] handling
>>>>handling at the factory. as you say, corrosion pitting starts & that
>>>>causes a stress riser that initiates fatigue. it's the fatigue cracking
>>>>that kills the spring.
>>>
>>>
>>>Funny thing is I've always thought that spring metal can easily be made
>>>fairly corrosion resistant.
>>
>>sure, there's all kinds of non-ferrous springs, but they're fiercely
>>expensive. i know honda springs don't seem "cheap", but believe me,
>>they are compared to the alternatives. also bear in mind that steel is
>>relatively high modulus compared to other materials and silicon/carbon
>>steel typically used in auto springs has a very high yield point
>>compared to most fatigue resistant stainless steels. lastly, spring
>>wire has to be comparatively soft for the forming phase, then heat
>>treatable to become hard and resistant to yielding. stainless steels
>>exist that have these kinds of hardening reactions, but they're a big
>>step up in cost.
>
>
> I wasn't talking about stainless or non-ferrous - there are alloys of of
> "steel" which corrode much more slowly than others. This is a problem
> which, while not unique to Honda, is a rather glaring one...

well sure, there are /many/ aloys of steel, but the key one in this
application is the ability to heat treat to something with a very high
yield point, yet not be brittle

> not to mention
> that the epoxy coating seems like a bad idea, given the evidence.

that definitely could do with some work. honda don't actually make
springs - they buy them in. find out who the supplier is.

>
>
>>> If Honda thinks they can skip that because of
>>>the epoxy coating, somebody there is dreaming. The Lyle tool I used to
>>>replace my springs really did a number on the brand new spring coating -
>>>tried to patch with epoxy glue and hoping it'll hold for a bit.
>>>
>>
>>just rust resistant paint works fine. trouble is, once you have some
>>corrosion, you have pitting & therefore potential fatigue crack
>>initiation. strictly speaking, springs in that condition should be
>>replaced, but i can't say i'm a strict adherant to that rule. depends
>>on mileage & condition.
>
>
> Did you miss something here? This was a brand new spring which was marred
> by the tool - no question of corrosion having started.

!

>
>
>>interesting you mention the lisle tool. i was extremely unimpressed
>>with the principle of that device, for the reasons you're describing
>>happened. i therefore built my own - does not touch the spring at all!
>> i'll email a photo to tegger.
>
>
> I chose it because it *looks* safer than some others, since the loops
> cannot break loose from the spring coils under load. I found on use that
> the screws "machine" a "thread" into the collars, thus reducing their
> effective thickness - IOW safety may not be what it appears.
>
seems it's designed for operator safety at the time of service, not
subsequent fatigue damage safety.