DSM - just trying to add a little levity here. I'm always amazed how some threads take on a competing mind of their own. I'm enjoying this debate. I was ignorant of Top Tier until I took a trip south to Atlanta six years ago. Ever since I've been a believer in the cause. The tango post states my understanding and belief.

 

Does more detergent mean less of the stuff that actually burns and powers your car?

 

No deals were made, the three car guys went beyond the mins - EPA don't care about that.

And I couldn't agree more that they have no concern for anything but 'emission standards'. Never thought of them as my advocate ever. We all drive cars that could give better mileage if for their crazy fuel requirement game.

 

Bp also uses xylene and toluene so it might be higher than the 28 percent so thats another reason for not top tier but both are good for mpg and from experience not as dangerous as they say.

The new ULS diesels are too dry and lower mpg and more oil burning. So if spending more using more is saving the environment, more people better start complaining. Its not about clean air or saving oil. $$$$ is what its about.

 

Nope. It means more of the stuff that helps keep the fuel related parts of the engine clean. Go back a few posts and I gave a link.

 

Actually more detergents causes knock and other problems. Detergents leave ash which is like a glow plug. The ingredient that invigorate is, is a food grade polymer that the air force used to keep jet fuel from exploding. What is does for gas is cause a complete burn which means a cleaner engine using less fuel.

 

I know what detergents do but doesn't that dilute the gas?

 

There is still a significant amount of energy yield from some of the more popular detergents used today, if you are worried about losing energy/volume avoid ethanol blends and not detergents.

Detergents provide for a long term benefit, as opposed to short term performance

SB's post about detergents and "Invigorate" is on the mark. There is often a poor burn from most of the available detergents, though that is not as pronounced anymore.

To be effective detergents and lubes only have to make up a small portion of the fuel.

 

Its in small amounts ppm and every gas loses some fuel during evaporation and burning. A fuel can lose up to 3 percent per gallon. Some fuel are better than others and then you have Btu.

I found this on smart car america. Bp statement of top tier.

"Thanks for your note and interest in quality fuels.
BP's Fuels Technology group has tested BP gasoline with Invigorate and has demonstrated that all of our grades of gasoline with Invigorate perform as well or better than gasoline meeting the Top Tier standards.
Top Tier was a program started by GM and supported by a five other automakers. Ford (which recommends BP gasoline with Invigorate) and Chrysler and many other manufacturers are not members. The Top Tier program was created in response to one of the member's problems with fouling fuel injectors in certain models of their engines in the early
2000's.
To become a Top Tier gasoline supplier, the petroleum company or fuel marketer must submit their gasoline detergent additive to GM for testing at a certain dose. The applicant must sign a pledge to use that additive and dose for at least one year.
BP and some other major fuel marketers decided not to join the Top Tier program. BP's reason is simple: BP reserves the right to determine what goes into our gasoline for the benefit of our customers and does not want others dictating what to sell to our customers. We are confident that our gasoline will perform well in our customer's vehicles; in fact BP guarantees the performance of our gasoline in writing.
Thank you for your inquiry and interest, it sounds like you are interested in quality fuels. Why not give BP gasoline with Invigorate a try! It helps cars run younger for longer!
Kind regards,
US FUELS Marketing"

 

Avoiding ethanol is as hard as avoiding stupid people.

 

Here is an example of what I was talking about, look at the fuel spec. at the bottom for recovery and loss. ERC Racing Fuels :: Racing Gasoline Specs

 

It is becoming tough, yes. I only like ethanol when it is in high concentration and used for performance.

As a solution to environmental concerns... it is a loser on several fronts. Especially when derived from corn.

 

Avoiding ethanol is almost impossible but the new E15 and higher blends of ethanol will have problems running in cars. http://www.crcao.org/news/Mid%20Leve...Sep23_2010.pdf

 

The other thing most everyone seems to forget is that you need physically more fuel for several reasons when you add any amount of ethanol to the fuel on any given platform.

How is that environmentally friendly?

1.) Ethanol burns at a leaner lambda voltage, but a richer AFR.

So basically stoich or 1.0v lambda for E85 is 9.8:1AFR vs. 14.7:1AFR for gasoline.

Thats 150% more fuel just to burn at stoich. For reference as to how this affects most people, when you are out driving under regular cruising the ECU is aiming at stoich, and you idle at stoich with very few exceptions.

2.) Then under WOT when the engine needs to burn rich, even though you can run leaner in terms of lambda voltage, like 0.85-0.90v on E85 vs. 0.72-0.80v, you are still burning far more fuel.

Best case scenario in that comparison, the leanest lambda (0.90v) for E85 is 8.8:1AFR and the richest for Gas at 0.72v lambda or 10.6:1AFR... E85 is still using ~20% more fuel.

3.) To compound this situation further, ethanol, being an alcohol fuel brings it's own oxygen to the party, and requires yet more fuel for the same volume of metered air entering the engine.


How's that for economical and environmentally friendly?

 

My fuel trims are -3.1 so that a perceived rich condition and the ecu is leaning the fuel air. If ethanol was is there it would have a perceived lean condition and add fuel. Is that right?

 

Possibly this will put it all in perspective, plus this thread is so far off topic I'm thinking it needs a little comic relief:

If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in Delta Airlines one year
ago, you would have $49 today.

If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in AIG one year ago, you would
have $33 today.

If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in Lehman Brothers one year
ago, you would have $0 today.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But, if you had purchased $1,000 worth of beer one year ago, drank
all the beer and then turned in the aluminum cans for recycling, you
would have received $214.

Based on the above, the best current investment plan is to drink
heavily & recycle.

It's called the 401-Keg.

A recent study found that the average American walks about 900 miles
a year.

Another study found that Americans drink, on average, 22
gallons of alcohol a year.

That means that, on average, Americans get
about 41 miles to the gallon!

Makes you proud to be an American!

 

Thats funny. But I walk about 5 miles a day so my miles to gallon is higher.

 

If you purchased $1000 in Lehman Brothers a year ago you don't need a car because you have a time machine.

Anyway what cheap crap beer are you buying that costs less than 20 cents a can?

 

Maybe he buys beer in bulk!

 

Keystone beer and aluminium cans are 42 cents a pound its possible. I like Sam Adams so the glass bottle is worth less.