80% is pretty impressive now. What year is it? Even though Dana is a US firm, they are assembled in Japan now.

Anyways.. that makes up for your 95% foreign Fit?

My Laser was originally from Normal, Ill. Engine was cast from US Iron. Drivelines from Mitsu, the rest from Chrysler back when they actually built things here.. and every single build and rebuild was done in my garage so that is certainly made in america. Currently.. almost everything in that car is from the US as well.

My RAV4 is mostly foreign built, as is my Fit. But I like my cars to last. Though Ford seems like they are starting to get their act together, but winning JD Power's Initial Quality award doesn't mean dick to me.

I want to see how they are doing 5 years down the road before I consider buying from the Big 3 ever again. And I find it hard to believe that you buy much that is made in the US anymore. The overwhelming majority of products sold here are not from here.

In the 1960's however 8 or 9 out of 10 products were actually manufactured here.

I would be surprised if 3/10 were today.

We are (and have been for sometime) shifting from a manufacturing based economy to one of advanced tech and services.

There is nothing wrong with that either. It doesn't help that our trade balance is out of whack, but we can't all share Germany's model.

 

I do too, that's why I use Top Tier Gas.

My "X" is a 2001.

 

So now you are down to quote-mining my posts in a feeble attempt to make a baseless jab?

Too bad you don't read your own links then:

You are also stuck in this cycle (cognitive dissonance anyone?) where you seem to believe that Top Tier is the best, bar none and no exceptions.

This is not true at all, but it shows how effective the TT campaign has been. They simply have the minimum requirements for a specific cocktail of ingredients, and say nothing of the rest of the fuel's constituents.

You can exceed the TT standards, and not opt-in to the TT club. BP falls into this category.

I am not just yanking your chain here, I have an immense amount of time and experience with fuels of all stripes from propane, hydrogen, nitromethane, methanol, ethanol, toluene, xylene, ULS diesel, both leaded and unleaded gasoline, etc. and hate seeing broad sweeping BS statements spouted as fact.

 

.........

 

I said:
You said:
They said:
Edit: On review I see that the section I quoted was from K_C, but that fact still stands.

 

You left out this part, "These automakers have raised the bar. TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline help drivers avoid lower quality gasoline which can leave deposits on critical engine parts, which reduces engine performance. That's something both drivers and automakers want to avoid."

If my engine performance is reduced by gasoline, my repair costs go up. If my repair costs go up, I may get rid of the car. If I get rid of the car prematurely, I haved shortened the life (as far as I am concerned) of the car.

I'll bottom line it for you. I choose to use Top Tier Gas, you don't. I don't give a sh!t!

 

Which goes back to my first post. The whole idea behind TT gas was for manufacturers to encourage customers to use big name gas, the rest is marketing.

Use a big name high traffic station and that will help control for all the variable involved in fuel that I have been explaining to you.

Use TT, but don't put them on a pedestal.

I know you don't give a sh*t, because you have demonstrated a disdain for facts and anything that disagrees with the lowest common denominator advertising involved in pushing TT.

Everything I illustrated for you still stands, whether or not you understand it isnt my problem.

Best of luck.

 

No, I think the goal of TT is to encourage the use of these, many of these are not "big name gas"

TOP TIER Gasoline Retailers:76, Petro-Canada, Aloha Petroleum, Phillips 66, Chevron, QuikTrip, Chevron Canada, Rebel Oil, Conoco, Road Ranger, CountryMark, Severson Oil, Entec Stations, Shell, Esso, Shell Canada, Exxon, Sunoco Canada, Kwik Trip / Kwik Star, Texaco, MFA Oil Co., The Somerset Refinery, Inc., Mileage Stations, Tri-Par Oil Co., Mobil, Turkey Hill Minit Markets, U.S. Oil.

 

Oh man, you just have to pull me into this, don't you LOL

That quote was the EPA covering it's ass to keep there decision to reduce the detergent levels to a minimum and prove they have no concern for the automotive industry or the consumer.

GM, Honda and Toyota stepped in to rescue the fact that there is a better approach that serves their engines and the consumer by re-establishing a serviceable level of detergent additives to fuel. It wasn't an oil company that did it but 3 Auto manufacturers, however, a few responsible refiners saw the purpose and answered the call.

THEN the other refiners, not on board but capitalizing on the favor the EPA just threw at them, pushed back big time calling it all a marketing sham. Demonize it, a very old tactic.

Well it really isn't at all.

In 2004 the TTFuel list was, possibly, 4 gas producers with SHELL being the biggest. The push back went on for years.

Here's the list today: Top Tier Retailers

I have no idea where BP stands on this [I think you stated it though as having something to do with liability], but the thing that I see happening is that a voice was given to go beyond the EPA's minimum requirement and serve a purpose in doing so that helps us all.

Argue it if you must but the facts remain.

I sort of like the idea that someone had the balls to do it and I support it wholeheartedly and it's nice to see more fuel following a brave lead that does address engine longevity.

That is serving the consumer - I like that a whole lot.

I GIVE A SHIT

K_C_

EDIT: +rep to spreadhead for doing the DSM tango

 

Its not the detergents its the ethanol, all gasoline are supposed to have the minimum amount of detergents. BP has 2.4 times regular and 3 times mid grade and 4 times premium. Mobil only used 7 percent ethanol and the minimum amount is 8 percent. Mobil went top tier last year so they bumped the ethanol and also start using a better additive. BP uses no ethanol in their premium and I believe midgrade and dont pay for top tier approval. It would be top tier if the ethanol was over 8 percent.

I use premium for many reasons and mpg is one of them.

 

Not where I live, according to the signage on their pumps.

 

No - I'm pretty sure it's detergents - again, it's the EPA doing the corn boys a favor and saying it's for 'emissions'. HA - money in lobbyist pockets as well as all those congressional corn farmers collecting subsidies.

 

Is it serving the consumer? No.

Does it create a nice catch phrase that implies superiority? Yes.

I like, use and recommend Shell. I also like use and recommend BP.

TT doesn't mean anything outside of meeting an arbitrary minimum for a given cocktail of constituents. This does not account for everything else that goes into the various gas blends. There are as many as 90 blends of gas in the US.

You don't have to be in the TT club to meet or exceed said arbitrary minimums.

Ethanol is now one of the components for the TT cocktail. Which is another reason BP didn't hop on the bandwagon.

SB is right, for our region at least, there is no ethanol in BP's premium fuel.

 

It says it may contain up to 10 percent ethanol. I seen it on the ultra gauge, -3.1 to-3.9 which is pulling fuel. If ethanol was in there it would add or be a zero. 10 percent ethanol is 3.5 percent extra oxygen so more fuel is needed.

 

True, but TT give me a list of known gasolines which meet "said arbitrary minimums", with all their grades, not just 93.

 

Bp advertises invigorate, even though no one knows what it is. Its better than Vpower premium only in Shell gas and none mention is other brands. In the Chicago area Amoco was the first to use ethanol, they also had unleaded gasoline going back to 1915. The other company's are playing catch up and gain from the negative publicity. I have nothing to gain but I know what I know.

 

K_C if doing the DSM tango means being tasked to put your money where you mouth is, I embrace it wholeheartedly.

If we are going to bother to have a technical discussion it better hold up to scrutiny. Which is what I tend to provide, because apparently no one else will.

In short screw populism, cognitive dissonance and appeal to emotion.

This site has too much BS on it.

 

 

There already exist lists of minimums for selling fuel in the US.

The EPA passage quoted actually shows that they called for reducing detergents and top cylinder lubes. So if you are concerned about quality or specifically longevity the EPA is not going to be your advocate. They only care about emissions.

The OEM's care about quality and longevity but had to make a couple deals with the EPA. So you get the over-rated, over-hyped compromise that is TT. They are still good fuels, but they aren't necessarily better fuels, and in several cases contain less detergent additives and less upper cylinder lube. Those two types of additives are what aid in longevity.

That is all I have been saying for the last two pages.

 

Its all smoke and mirrors anyways.