I have a 70cc Honda Passport that does the rev hang thang also.

 

I had mixed results in tonight's rev match downshifting. After a succesful rev match, should I be seeing a change in rpms? Can the clutch be released faster in downshifting?

 

When down shifting you should be at a higher RPM after the shift if speed has not dropped.
With an up-shift the RPM's will initially be a bit lower than what they were just prior to the shift, but w/ acceleration being the goal they will quickly rise above were you were, setting things up for the next shift.

How 'fast', or quickly you release the clutch is more related to your mastering the technique than which way you're shifting. When practicing I concentrate on getting the feel of what I'm doing before I get into how fast I can do it. Quick comes later and, trust me, it will.

 

KC, I have learned how to "finesse" the clutch in normal upshifting so would you say it's the same in rev match downshifting? When stopped facing down a hill, I just depress the clutch, put it in 2nd and, when rolling, quickly release the clutch. So the clutch release would not be the same in rev match downshifting?

 

Rev-matching is a term aptly applied to being sure that your engine speed will match the clutch disk speed. Both are spinning and ideally they will be spinning at the same rate when engaging them.

Keep in mind that the clutch disk is directly connected to the transmission. The transmission is what turns the drive wheels. So the clutch pedal is all you have to separate the engine from the drive wheels.
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The clutch disk speed is determined by two factors; A) How fast the car is going. B) What gear you are in.

A) Faster you go the faster the transmission is spinning in any given gear.

B) A lower gear will spin the tranny faster tham a higher gear.
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Engine speed is determined by how heavy your right foot is on the gas pedal.
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Clutch engagement is only controlled by how quickly you either push down with your left foot or release it from the clutch pedal.
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Stopped facing down hill you would start off as you normally do, in first gear. From then on it's up shifting as normal, only thing is you're driving down hill. Your finesse will be realized.

When driving down that hill, after you reach fifth gear you decide to slow the car - you brake to check speed.
Let's say you are slowing to make a right turn - not requiring a full stop - and you need to be in forth gear to comfortably negotiate the turn and accelerate out.
You would then depress the clutch, shift down to forth and gently tap on the accelerator to give a slight increase in engine speed [RPM] and with all that finesse release the clutch.
You would have then completed a rev-matched down shift.
The next thing in line is a gentle up-shift to fifth and continue on your way.

Don't get hung on the term - the technique works when shifting - both up and down.

One thing that makes it a bit difficult on the Fit is the throttle delay that hangs the RPM's when taking your foot off the accelerator.
I've found it actually helps me in all my daily driving shifts - it keeps the RPM's up for you while shifting, up through the gears or up hills or down, no matter.

 

KC, good stuff, thanks. The only point that I've found disagreement between you and others is starting in 2nd on a downhill slope. Both the All City Stick Driving School (video) and the guys on Car Talk teach that 1st gear is only needed to get the car rolling so that if you are stopped facing downhill, it's OK to put it in 2nd and, when rolling, release the clutch. This is what I do now with no apparent ill effects. When I've tried it in 1st, it seems like I'm almost immediately in the 3-4K range.

 

Yep - short first shifts are common, but I always start off in first unless I'm driving a rack truck.

Not sure why a driving school would suggest that, it's simply the wrong technique to learn with, least following what Dad taught me back in 63 on his 58 Ford. And he learned me well, trust me on that.

 

Is it possible to be going too fast for a rev matched downshift from 4th to 3rd? I did one where everything seemed to go smoothly. There was no jerk, but afterwards it sounded like the Fit wanted to go back to 4th. When I upshifted, everything was fine. Was I going too fast for the downshift?

 

Yes. When down shifting it's the time to look at the RPM's and the speed you are going at. It is easy to down shift at too high a speed. Did ya get close to red-line?

 

No, I've never gotten close to the red zone. The manual says the recommended shift point from 3rd to 4th is 39mph, so I always let the speed drop below 39 before downshifting, but I guess I need to pay more attention to rpms. How would I get a true reading of what 3rd gear rpms should be?

 

Here's something you can do in an open stretch of road with no traffic behind or a huge parking lot . Be safe

Get going in 3rd gear comfortably slow and slowly go faster. SLOWLY
Get to know the RPM's. You will feel the comfortable zone. Easy on the gas, that's all. Get to feel it. People seldom do things like this.

Do each gear. Now you're paying attention to the tach, so don't drive into anything.

Good to have a lot of room and no traffic. I've used large parking lots. You can safely do it.

Fit will tell you.

 

In a successful rev matched downshift, should there be any sensation of engine braking? Is release of the clutch pedal the same as in upshifting or can it be done faster?

 

If you are not down shifting to accelerate and you have released your foot from the accelerator you had better feel the engine slowing you down.... The whole idea of rev matching is to not put undue stress or wear on the clutch, other drive train components or the tires when using the engine compression to assist in slowing the car down.... When you do so in the Fit, besides saving on brake wear you are also saving fuel because the fuel is cut off at the injectors and the ignition retards 22 degrees after top dead center except in 1st gear or below about 10MPH in the others.... Just be sure to let the clutch out slowly until you are get it down and then start lifting off of the clutch a bit faster but never dumping it.... I learned to do this over 40 years ago and I still don't get it as smooth as I'd like to every time so I lift off of the clutch gently so I don't look like a complete klutz.

 

On a perfect rev match you must drop the clutch as fast as possible, before the revs get down (then it won't be matched anymore so you will obviously feel engine brake when releasing the clutch). But with a good rev match, even if you don't feel the engine brake, the compression will still slow down the car, it just won't be brutal, or risk to block the wheels (at the tires limit on a curve by example).

And on a perfect rev match you don't need to clutch actually...
Just practice and it will become natural. The DBW of the fit sucks hard and screw up everything however.

 

Thanks Broody. Seems like you and Coyote agree on the engine braking but disagree on how fast the clutch should be released. If I am releasing it too fast how would I know? Would there be a jerk? If I don't feel anything except the engine braking, can I assume that all went well?

 

If the rev match is perfect it won't make anything if you realease the clutch fast. If the rev match is not perfect and you drop the clutch quickly, it will abruptly force the rev matching, and then brake or accelerate the car a bit. And probably use the clutch and some other components...

The best example that if you rev match well, you are better to release the clutch quick, is that a good clutch less downshift hurts nothing and goes like it butter.

 

In approaching a traffic light, I clutch in, shift to 2nd, and, if the light changes, I release the clutch and continue on in 2nd until I can upshift. If the light doesn't change and I have to come to a full stop, I just leave it in 2nd with the clutch down and when the light changes, I release the clutch and continue in 2nd. Anything wrong with moving in 2nd from a full stop?

 

I've been watching Romulus - looks like you're getting it down. So much for us 'old dogs' and new tricks, eh?

With the car rolling second gear is the correct one to use.

From a complete stop I would always recommend first gear. You'll be laboring the engine and introducing undue clutch wear starting off in second. You'll quickly be out of first, but it gets it all moving.

I learned long ago it's called first for that reason. Now with dump trucks and heavy hauling things first can be geared incredibly low and starting off in second is a viable option, not so with the Fit, however.

 

KC, in starting from 1st, do you give it any gas before the clutch is fully released? The reason I ask is that at least one driving school and the guys on Car Talk say you shouldn't because it's hard on the clutch.

 

You need to give it the gas, otherwise you're going to stall the engine and are not going to go anywhere.

So:

From a dead stop on level ground, right foot on the brake
Left foot down on clutch shift into 1st position
Right foot off brake and over to gas - left is still holding the clutch down to the floor
Down a bit on gas and up a bit on clutch in one smooth continuous movement
As soon as you feel the clutch begin to engage, down a wee-bit more on the gas and continue up with the clutch to full release
At this point the car is moving forward with the right foot on the gas and the left foot is off the clutch and on the floor, waiting for the next shift

It's right foot moves down as the left foot comes up - both at the same time


What you've been told applies if the clutch is not fully released. That's called slipping the clutch when you control things with the clutch pedal. Never do that. Once the left foot begins to come up and engage the clutch it should be in one continuous move.

My #1 rule to shift by is that if the left foot is on the clutch it should have it fully to the floor or be releasing it. Once released the left foot is then off the clutch and on the floor again.