So, people have brought up that some dealerships have tried to get you (or gotten some people) to sign promissory notes and other things you shouldn't...

My dealer tried to get me to sign the following document:
RapidShare: 1-CLICK Web hosting - Easy Filehosting
[feel free to post and/or make the file more easily accessible.. I wasn't sure of the best way to do so here.] It's just one PDF page.

They CLAIMED it was a government document, which imo, it clearly isn't..
I'm wondering if anybody has seen this or similar paperwork either at honda dealers or at non-honda dealers? It seems to have been faxed to the dealership/owner of the dealership.. so I'm assuming someone else somewhere came up with it to be used multiple places.

 

The Cash for Clunkers deal is supposed to be used to buy AMERICAN cars. They're not supposed to be allowed at import dealerships. They're having you sign a promissory note because they won't get the money for them.

 

its actually for any NEW car.

 

Please keep your politics out of this, and stick to facts. Thank you.

And, you are incorrect, there is no limit on the brands that can be purchased with C4C, or where they will or are made.

Also, I'm not the only one whose being asked to sign such a note. There have been comments in other threads. I'm just trying to see if anybody has seen documents like I posted, or might know the origin of it.

 

I'm not trying to start a political battle. Please don't assume that just because I have a classic American car (and avatar) that I have any negative feelings about Honda or C4C. That statement had been my understanding. I checked on it after I posted, and you are correct. There is no limit and I retract my statement.Yes, I have a Trans Am. Yes, it qualifies for C4C. No, I will not trade it in. But if I did, a Fit is the first thing I'd go for, too.

They have up on Cars.gov that people are being asked to sign contingencies and should not be...and are told not to sign it.

 

The only reason i can see for that is that there is only a set amount for the C4C program and there will be people who trade it in for that only to have the money for C4C have run out the day before. Anywho I wouldnt sign it.

 

I didn't even know this until I read your other posting afterwards. My response was based on the impression your reply gave, and it's appropriateness in response to my inquiry.

Of course not, your Trans Am looks like it's worth a heck of a lot more than $4500.

Hmmmm that is new, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I wonder if that is because I sent the paperwork to the government earlier today to get them to confirm details about this!

 

Dang stupid internet...sometimes I hate trying to communicate online. Sorry...

Aww...thanks!! I'm pretty proud of that girl! Long story behind us on that one...but that's all over my F-body forums...


Possible...if it is, you're saving a LOT of people a LOT of headache! I'm glad they're calling attention to it!

 

Cash for Clunkers | Get Started NHTSA Program | Dealer Directory

Use that site for any info you need. It really helped me out when I was looking to trade in my 97 Grand Cherokee. Its up to date and gets updates almost everyday.

HTH

 

Please ignore this light gray text, I am incorrect.....
It's one of the forms that are required, you can view all the forms that you should be seeing and signing on the CARS.gov site here:
CARS.gov - Car Allowance Rebate System - Official Information - Formerly Referred to as “Cash for Clunkers”

The forms are in both The Rule pdf and The Amendment pdf. ...the light gray text is wrong, but the links are still good.

We have many discussions going on about the program. This one:
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/gene...periences.html

We have a News thread:
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/gene...kers-news.html

Another thread:
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/gene...fit-owner.html

One more:
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-...paperwork.html

Just about everything that can happen has happened to someone, either in one of those threads or in the news articles. You're coming in a little late, so there is a lot to catch up on. You'll probably find the answers to most all questions in the threads above.

But ask questions, and try to read some of the info when you can. Being prepared at the dealership will expedite the process.

Edit add-on: I am incorrect, the form posted by interestingstuff is NOT part of the CARS program, I am in error. I did not read it closely. I only scanned the top information. I hope this has not caused anyone any problems with the program. Oh boy!

 

Huh?! Taffeta, did you actually download and read the PDF file I posted? I do respect your responses in the other threads, but I do _NOT_ think that this is a government document. Please tell me exactly which page of which government file this document is found on, if it indeed is. The file I posted has a contingency statement which the government is now telling you to not sign should a dealer ask you to.

 

Currently on CARS.gov homepage-

"We’ve heard that dealers are asking consumers to sign agreements with contingencies when they participate in the CARS program.

CONSUMERS ARE NOT REQUIRED TO SIGN CONTINGENCY AGREEMENTS TO PAY BACK THE DEALER SHOULD THE CARS CREDIT BE REJECTED.

We’ve also heard that dealers are asking consumers to keep their “clunker” until the deal is approved by NHTSA.

IF THE DEALER HAS THE NEW CAR IN STOCK, THE DEALER MUST ALLOW YOU TO TAKE POSSESSION OF THE NEW CAR BEFORE THE DEALER MAY SUBMIT THE CREDIT APPLICATION TO THE GOVERNMENT. PLEASE REPORT ANY DEALER TO NHTSA THAT DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO TAKE POSSESSION OF A NEW CAR PURCHASED UNDER THE CARS PROGRAM. PLEASE CALL THE CARS HOTLINE AT (866) CAR-7861."

 

Oh, I'm an idiot. I SCANNED. I did download what you posted. But I SCANNED the top. I am so sorry. I am totally wrong.

I was thinking of it being the information on page 14 of The Amendment.

But I'm wrong.

You are completely correct, that is a bogus form, and it needs to be forwarded, faxed, mailed, or otherwise sent to the CARS people. It should be reported immediately.

That kind of thing is forbidden under the program. Dealers can be fined for breaking the rules, as well as have their registration in the program canceled.

Have you contacted them yet? Here is the HOTLINE phone number:
(866) CAR-7861.

I am very sorry!

 

One reason the dealers are doing that is because they are ignorant and not completing the paperwork completely or according to the rules, so they get burnt.

The dealer I went to was very thorough and told me that once I left the lot, the deal was done and not to worry. The reason for this is they were very careful about each document and made sure everything was perfect.

Other dealers wanted me to sign the aforementioned paperwork because they were sloppy. As an example, there was no mention of 13 months of registrations. They only wanted me to come in and sign then take delivery quickly. The dealer that was great actually took the time to tell me to go to the BMV to get a faxed copy of last years registration and excactly how to do it (which involved asking for the manager since BMV employees are rude idiots).

 

I didnt sign any forms like that but i wrote them a contract that i would give the car back and get my clunker back without paying any $$ if the C4C failed.

 

Those of you who were asked to sign or did sign one of those forms, you need to contact several sources.

First, you want to contacts the CARS hotline: (866) CAR-7891

Those dealers are not following the rules. I'm going to guess that it could have stemmed from NADA (National Auto Dealers Association) as a way to protect the dealers from losing out.

However, it's not the consumer's fault that the dealer has no clue on what forms are needed or how to fill them out. And the salesperson is probably just handing the packet of papers over to each customer, without doing their own homework to see what is required.

I totally botched my first answer for this thread, so even if the salesperson did read everything at the beginning, they might have had a fuzzy recollection of what the specific form looks like. And, they probably don't want to lose their job if they do know, because "the boss" says to have the customer fill out the form. Period.

If the dealerships are actively SCAMMING people, by assuring people of this rebate of $3,500-$4,500 is applicable EVEN IF IT IS NOT (for the customer's trade-in not qualifying or the car bought not qualifying), then we have a REAL BIG PROBLEM.

That is the very best reason to report the people immediately to the CARS program.

And to then send off a note to the Better Business Bureau (BBB), your local news, and perhaps the Attorney General of your state.

Let's take a look at the search results in the news section on Google for "CARS clunker NADA"

Starting with the older articles that were right in the middle of the main confusion, when it was and wasn't suspended, was and wasn't out of money, and the magical changing mpg on the Fuel Economy site...etc (LOL)...
---

Aug 1
“We’re going to do as the government suggests and continue to sell cars, but I’m a little hesitant to deliver them until we know for sure we’ll get reimbursed,” said Bill Fox, the owner of four dealerships near Auburn, New York.
?Clunker? Concerns Linger as Car Dealers Await Expanded Funding - Bloomberg.com

Right there, there's one rule breaker, who didn't want to deliver the car until they got paid, in full.
-------

July 31
And here's NADA spreading doubt among clueless dealers:

The head of the National Automobile Dealers Association warned auto dealers today that they could be on the hook for any cash-for-clunkers deals despite assurances from the Obama administration that they will be honored.
...
"NADA has been given specific assurances by the administration that all transactions consummated through today will be honored based on their belief that sufficient funds remain available," McEleney said in a statement.

"Nonetheless, until further definitive guidance on the availability of funding is provided by the administration, dealers who accept additional ‘clunkers’ deals may face a risk that they will not be reimbursed."
Dealers fear they'll be left with clunkers tab | Detroit Free Press | Freep.com
------

July 30
Not even a week into the new CARS aka "Cash for Clunkers" program, the National Automobile Dealers Association has warned that the $1 billion worth of federal funds allocated for the program are in danger of running out "well before" the November 1 program end date. According to a recent Automotive News report, the government has said that dealers have already applied for 10% of the available funds in the program, just six days after program registration was launched.
Cash For Clunkers: NADA Warns Money Going Fast, EPA Clarifies MPG Changes | Motortrend News & Auto Blog - Wide Open Throttle
------

As far as the paperwork portion, there is too much rushing to hurry up and do the deal (just like I hurried up and scanned the form posted by interestingstuff and made a big mistake):

NHTSA stated that they would post a list of the Top 10 reasons that dealer reimbursement submissions have been rejected to date. The most common reasons for rejected deals NHTSA stated are:
-Absence of a brand, written or stamped on the front and back of the trade-in vehicle’s title that states “Junk Automobile, CARS.gov.”
-Lack of proof of continuous insurance
-Summary of Sales Agreement has missing signatures
-VIN mismatches
...
NHTSA stated that its computer system would be conducting an automatic review of the CARS reimbursement submissions on August 12, which will likely result in a large number of rejections. Submissions will be rejected for more obvious errors, such as a failure to include any attachments. Dealers should not be surprised to see a larger than normal number of rejections, and are encouraged to closely review all of those rejected transactions, identify the errors or omissions, and re-submit them once they have been properly completed. V. Several recent entries on the CARS.gov Web site, including issues relating to transaction contingency agreements and the timing of vehicle delivery, have created confusion. These issues were raised with NHTSA and are under review. NADA will report any clarifications received from NHTSA.


NADA Update on 'Cash for Clunkers' Claims Submission Issues
------

There has been a lot of confusion over the scrap value, here is what NADA has to say about it on their own site:

Q. Must dealers provide customers with a “best estimate of the scrappage value of the (clunker)”? A. Yes. The CARS rule contains a “Summary of Sale or Lease” worksheet dealers must use for each transaction. See: http://www.cars.gov/files/6265_Summa...ifications.pdf. Among other things, dealers must provide an estimate of the clunker’s scrap value on that form. Dealers typically may obtain such estimates from the recycler, processor, or salvage auction they intend to use. By law, dealers can keep $50 of the scrap value toward administrative costs, in lieu of charging an additional CARS fee for the transaction. Purchasers of the new vehicle are not entitled to the actual money dealers may receive for clunkers when they are disposed of.
Frequently Asked Questions

Just a couple more monkey wrenches:
Q. How should I put the “JUNK AUTOMOBILE CARS.GOV” on the title? Handwritten? Type? Label?

A. Although not specified in its rule, NHTSA wants it handwritten and has reportedly rejected typed submissions.

Q. If a title is labeled as “JUNK AUTOMOBILE CARS.GOV” and submitted into the CARS system and later the deal is unwound, what happens to the vehicle’s title?

A. If such a situation occurs and cannot be approved under the CARS program, NHTSA claims they will work with individual state DMV to issue the consumer a new clean title.
------

And now we're back to today!

NEW YORK — Consumer advocacy groups are calling on the Department of Transportation to crack down on dealerships offering questionable sales terms to customers participating in the government's Cash for Clunkers program.
The groups complained that some dealerships have pressured customers to sign agreements forcing them to repay their Clunkers rebate if the dealership isn't reimbursed for the sale. The DOT says car buyers are not required to sign the so-called contingency forms to qualify for a Clunkers transaction, but the groups said the waiver should be banned altogether.
“It involves dealers attempting to shift the risk from themselves to consumers if the Cash for Clunker deals don't go through,” said Rosemary Shahan, president of Sacramento, Calif.-based Consumers for Auto Reliability and Safety. “We believe it is a form of bait and switch.”
The program allows car buyers to receive a rebate of $3,500 or $4,500 if they trade in old vehicles that get 18 miles per gallon or less and replace them with more fuel-efficient new cars or trucks. The program has been a hit with consumers and automakers. President Barack Obama earlier this month signed a bill adding $2 billion more in funding.
But the program's execution has had some problems. For example, dealers — who must pay for the rebates and then wait to get reimbursed by the government — have complained it can take days or weeks to get their claims processed, leaving them worried about getting repaid.
“While problems with application submissions for the clunkers program have been significantly reduced, getting approval for dealer reimbursement requests is still facing significant hurdles, John Lyboldt, a National Association of Automobile Dealers vice president, said in a prepared statement.
Dealerships have said they asked customers to sign the waivers as a form of self-protection. Bailey Wood, an NADA spokesman, said waivers are a way of protecting dealers from being stuck with rebates they offered but can't get reimbursed.

Consumer groups say some Clunkers deals dubious | Business | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle


------

Dealers don't trust the government. Consumers don't trust the dealers. The government underestimated. You know, the usual things that happen. LOL!

You HAVE to contact the CARS hotline in the best interests of everyone.

YOU don't want to be screwed over because the dealers reading comprehension is where mine was at earlier. haha, er, but $4,500 isn't really a laughing matter if the amount bounces back to you the consumer, because the dealership has not followed the rules.

The dealership can get sloppy, and they're listening to NADA more than they are listening to the government. With that nifty contingency, there's even possible scams, in that the dealer could have the first submission rejected, bill you, and go back to the government to resubmit the forms and get another $4,500 from them. That's not good. That's greed.

The dealerships that are getting reimbursed are the ones who fill out all the forms correctly. It's that easy. If you do it right, you only have to do it ONCE.

You want to do all these reports to the CARS Hotline and any other consumer groups to protect your rights. Cover your own butt, in a way that is honest and upfront and respectable.

Because another thing that seems to be "business as usual" are law suits. And if enough consumers are getting screwed over by dealers and their sneaky fake government contingency forms, there will be some kind of legal action.

You want to be able to participate in that legal action if there is one. And you won't be able to participate if you happen to do something shady yourself.

Use the law as a shield, not a sword. You want to use the law and the rules of the CARS program to protect YOURSELF. Not to stab the dealer. They were trying to protect themselves too, they were worried too.

Both the dealer and the consumer worry about that $4,500 coming back to bite in the butt. The dealer thought they had a good idea with the form, but it's not a good idea and isn't right under the CARS program.

It's up to YOU, the consumer, to forward on all information you have about dealers who were trying to get you to sign contingency forms. You need to pass that info to the CARS hotline.

ESPECIALLY IF THE DEALER IS CLAIMING THE FORM TO BE A GOVERNMENT FORM. It's not. I call that fraud. It's at least misleading, which is what got the NY Attorney General (AG) involved in the ADVERTISING in their own state.

If advertising is misleading, imagine what an AG can do with fake government forms!!!

There's a ton of stuff I can do and have done, the best I can, from here, like look up rules and post news stories. But I don't have everyone's forms, I don't KNOW what people were asked to sign or how it was presented to them by the dealer.

Each of YOU know your own situation, you are your own expert on what happened. If there are questions about what transpired, I am SURE that the people at the CARS program will ask for clarification.

Have your paperwork ready. Have the dealer name and address handy. The salesperson. Dates, times. Go FIRST to the CARS Hotline. That's the money source. That's who can make and break the dealership, who can check into the fake government forms, and can refer you to whatever legal/legitimate steps are required next.

There will be pass the buck at the dealership. Salespeople may or may know what the actual forms are supposed to be, they get it from the manager, who got it from the owner, who got it from some other owner, who says it was suggested by someone else, who got the idea from NADA who didn't really say that at all...

All that pass the buck part doesn't matter. It really doesn't. What does matter is getting the problem fixed. ASAP.

 

You need to contact the CARS hotline too. It doesn't matter what the form looks like, it matters more of what is contained in the form. Or contract.

The dealers are not supposed to be requiring people to sign any paperwork that will require the consumer to pay the dealer the CARS money.

If the dealer does the paperwork correctly, and does it right the first time, there is no reason it would be declined.

If the dealer has no clue as to what they are doing and get all their deals bounced back, then that dealer should not be participating.

There ARE dealers getting paid. There ARE dealers who know how to fill out the forms and know what the requirements are. There ARE dealers who don't do the contingency contracts asking for money or the car back.

THOSE are the dealers who should be allowed to continue to participate in the CARS program. The CARS program participation is a PRIVILEGE, not a right.

Let's get the bad dealers corrected, or out of the program. Let the good ones continue to enjoy many customers and profit, the rewards of a job well done.

 

There you go! You have a perfect example of how it should be done.

Perhaps you can post the name of the GOOD dealer, so that other people in the area can go right to them instead of the others.

For my purchase back in December, I went out of my area to get the car I wanted. I know that many people here who bought over the years have also gone out of their area to get the car they wanted.

With the CARS program and all the confusion, I'm sure that many people would rather go to a good dealer, even if it is out of their way, than have problems.

There's more good news, from the CARS site:

New CARS Guidance

In response to overwhelming interest in the CARS program, NHTSA has clarified that consumers who want to purchase new vehicles not yet on dealer lots can still be eligible for the CARS program. Dealers and consumers who have reached a valid purchase and sale agreement on a vehicle already in the production pipeline will be able to work with the manufacturer to receive the documentation needed to qualify for the program.
CARS.gov - Car Allowance Rebate System - Home - Formerly Referred to as “Cash for Clunkers”


So even if your dealer sold their last Fit, but have more coming, it's now possible to do a deal on a car not on the lot. All the more reason for people to find the GOOD dealers who know what they're doing.



The bad ones will probably make it even worse.

 

Wow! Some dealers are lower than low...

Aug. 13 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Department of Transportation is advising consumers taking advantage of the “Cash for Clunkers” program not to sign contingency agreements promising to pay back up to $4,500 if dealers don’t receive payment from the government.
No contingency agreement is required to participate, the Transportation Department, which administers the $3 billion Car Allowance Rebate System, said on its Web site.
The Minnesota Automobile Dealers Association has a form on its Web site that members can use as part of a new-car closing. By signing the form, the buyer agrees to reimburse the dealership the incentive amount if the dealer is unable to obtain the credit from the government “for any reason.” The consumer can also return the car to the dealership and pay “a reasonable charge” for use of the new vehicle, according to the form.
Consumers signing the agreement also acknowledge their trade-in vehicle may have been destroyed and can’t be returned.
Dealers may be acting improperly by asking consumers to keep their old cars until credits for their vehicles are approved by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the Transportation Department said on its Web site. If the new car is in stock, the dealer must allow the buyer to take possession before the paperwork for the credit can be submitted, the department said.
Cash Demands
In some cases, dealers are demanding $4,500 in cash to avoid reporting the car as stolen when the government credit doesn’t arrive, said Rosemary Shahan, president of Sacramento, California-based Citizens for Auto Reliability and Safety.
Gloria Sharp of Woodbury, Minnesota, traded in her Jeep Grand Cherokee for a new Honda Accord and said she was called a few days after the deal closed and asked for more money. The government rejected the credit, but the problem turned out to be on the dealer’s end -- they had mistakenly applied for $4,500 instead of $3,500, she said.
“They said if we didn’t give them the money, they wouldn’t submit the paperwork,” Sharp said.
San Francisco-based Consumer Action joined Shahan’s group at a news conference to ask the Department of Transportation, which administers the program, to prohibit dealers from forcing consumers to sign agreements that promise payments if the reimbursements don’t show up.
‘Bait and Switch’
“These practices are a form of ‘bait and switch,’” the groups wrote in a letter to Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood today. “Car buyers are particularly vulnerable to the dealers’ pressure because they have surrendered their traded-in vehicle and lack access to reliable information about whether or not the deal was approved by the government.”
Minnesota Automobile Dealers Association Executive Vice President Scott Lambert said the group would continue using the contingency form. The government hasn’t said the form can’t be used, and dealers have to protect their interests with so much uncertainty about the program, he said.
“I don’t think it’s NHTSA’s job to get between the customer and the dealer,” Lambert said. “If the consumer doesn’t want to sign the agreement, they can walk away.”
The state’s 250 participating auto dealers have submitted about $42 million in unprocessed credits, Lambert said. Deals are getting rejected by the government on technicalities and about 10 percent of Minnesota’s dealer claims have been accepted, he said. For the entire country, it’s about 2 percent, he said.



from:

Government Tells ?Clunkers? Buyers Not to Sign Waiver (Update3) - Bloomberg.com

That is most of the article. Unbelievable. Did you see that? "Reporting the car stolen" if the customer doesn't give them the $4,500 the first time the paperwork is rejected.

And in the mentioned case above, it was the DEALER'S fault the paperwork was rejected.

What a bunch of LOSERS...those dealerships that can't figure out how to do the paperwork should NOT be allowed to participate. Those that are breaking all kinds of the rules should NOT be allowed to participate.

If that means only ONE dealership per state per manufacturer, fine. And the manufacturers can send ALL the cars in production to that one dealership, where consumers will get a fair deal.

 

Looks like we can trace it back to NADA, or at least the state dealer associations in this case:

Here are three common traps that car buyers have been encountering under the Cash for Clunkers program – and how to avoid them.
1. Watch out for waivers

Fearing the government may not reimburse the $3,500 or $4,500 credits extended to buyers under the program, some dealers are putting buyers on the hook for that money. They’re asking buyers to sign waivers or purchase agreements, which stipulate that if the dealer doesn’t get reimbursed, the buyer will pay back the credit or return the new car. Some states’ industry associations, like the Minnesota Automobile Dealers Association and the Illinois Automobile Dealers Association, have published sample agreements (here and here) for their members’ convenience.
Watch out: The Department of Transportation explicitly states that buyers are under no obligation to sign such agreements. Rosemary Shahan, president of Consumers for Auto Reliability and Safety, a Sacramento, Calif.-based advocacy group, says an increasing number of recent buyers are reporting that dealers are demanding they sign such agreements, trying to collect money from the buyers because of denied reimbursements and, in some cases, threatening to repossess new cars if the buyers refuse to pay.
Pete Sander, president of the Illinois Automobile Dealers Association, says dealers are concerned with delays in reimbursements and rejected applications, most of which are caused by clerical errors. “The concern is we’re not getting applications approved in a timely manner,” he says. “Why put dealers on the hook?” The Minnesota Automobile Dealers Association did not return calls seeking comment. The National Association of Automobile Dealers, or NADA, said in an email that it has raised these issues with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.


From:
3 Clunker Traps Car Buyers Should Avoid at SmartMoney.com


Pay attention to this part:
Pete Sander, president of the Illinois Automobile Dealers Association, says dealers are concerned with delays in reimbursements and rejected applications, most of which are caused by clerical errors. “The concern is we’re not getting applications approved in a timely manner,” he says. “Why put dealers on the hook?”


Why put dealers on the hook?



THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING THE CLERICAL ERRORS!



HELLO???


Remember my old suggestions about printing out the forms yourself and filling in as much as possible? That is still a darn good idea. Don't sign anything that doesn't come from the CARS site that you have already partially filled out. And compare your form with their form if they have to recopy what you did, to be sure they got it right.