Cotu and Taffetawhite: Yes! And so much easier to say that than write it all out myself

 

All you need to do is go to this link. And if you want you can create your own soapbox about the bad paperwork issue!
There is a congress "soap box" there - I need all the help I can get and I know I'm not the only one out there! Basically it automatically emails your US Senator and Representative (based on the zipcode u put in) then you fill out some info and wallah! an email is sentto the powers that be to have them do something about all the people out there not getting their new cars!
Feel free to add my email (shanson421@yahoo.com) in the section and then I'll know you sent something in and can thank you here on fitfreak! Much love and appreciation to all who can help! It won't cost you anything more than 2 minutes! Congress.org - NEW YORK CAR DEALER KEEPS HONDA HOSTAGE in Cash for Clunkers transactions!

If any of you feel like passing this onto more appropriate threads that would be great!

 

Sorry the title of the above link didn't post,,, I am hopeing that some of you will help me indirectly by contacting you officials through this congress.org link. It;s easy and takes just a few minutes. Thank you again.
Here's the link:
Congress.org - NEW YORK CAR DEALER KEEPS HONDA HOSTAGE in Cash for Clunkers transactions!

 

I just emailed the GM of the dealership I purchased my Fit from about the rights I have and the rules they have violated since he is out of office today. I'll try and do that if I don't hear back.

My other question is what are people doing about the salvage value of their clunkers? I know the dealer keeps the $50 for "fees", but I would imagine my 2001 GMC Jimmy will have a true salvage value more than that. I've heard anywhere from $100-$250 per clunker. The dealership told me my estimated salvage value was $50, but I know that can't be true - I have a feeling they just said that to avoid having to get an estimate and eventually take my trade-in.... and to avoid having me investigate about the true salvage price and any difference...I know it may only be $100, but an extra $100 dollars in my pocket or to fill a partial months payment would be handy to have around.

I know the CARS site says that the difference (true salvage price minus dealer $50) is NEGOTIABLE between consumer/dealership...so who is actually getting that difference back? Anyone here?

 

dealer will take it. you have to fight for it.

 

Well it probably the horse after the cart at this point since you had to sign something about that value, my clunker was a 99 Jimmy SLT - they gave it a $50 salvage value as well...and I know its worth more cause I had called in Februray- but oit was 300 then with a good motor, not much luck in any negotiating - the person kept saying you can try somewhere else, so dealers pretty much had buyers over a barrel. Dealers here were only allowing clunkers with what was on their lot. Did you get your car?

 

I pick my Fit up tomorrow after waiting almost a full month. Going straight to the dealership's GM worked great. I outlined my rights and how the dealership has been violating the cars program and asked when I could pick up the car/trade in my clunker. My sales rep had been steadfast with not allowing delivery, but the GM replied soon and said he will approve the delivery and that I'll get a call in an hour or so to schedule....so anyone who hasn't got their car..skip the sales rep and go right to the top! lol

 

The news is still reporting on the problems:

Monday, August 31, 2009
Brian J. O'Connor

Stand up to clunker cretins

The "cash for clunkers" program was a big success, unless you listen to car dealers moaning about all the money they are "out" while awaiting government rebates, which you should not do because those dealers aren't "out" any money or anything else, unless they deserve to be.



On the other hand, more than a few consumers have legitimate complaints about some not-so-scrupulous car dealers who tiptoed around several very specific provisions of the law, doing a kind of anti-consumer dance I'll call "the clunky chicken."



Some dealers refused to deliver new cars until they get their clunker reimbursement, or failed to disclose what they made on the scrap value of the car. Other dealers attached "contingency agreements" forcing buyers to cover the $4,500 or $3,500 clunker credit if the dealer loused up and the deal doesn't qualify, or even had buyers leave behind checks to cover a fouled-up clunker deal.



Illegal, illegal, illegal.

Does this deal smell clunky?

That's just not allowed, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which sets the rules for the clunker program. It's a nice sentiment, but it didn't help Dean Mandel.



The Yorktown Heights, N.Y., resident e-mailed after reading my guide to clunker deals. Mandel said his dealer sent him home with his '96 Ford Explorer, holding on to Mandel's $200 deposit and new Honda Fit for 22 days.



"I don't know exactly how he did it, but Monday he said, 'Come pick up your car tomorrow, everything's approved,' " Mandel said.



NHTSA wants to hear about dealers who acted like this clunker cretin, so either call (866) CAR-7891 or e-mail help@cars.gov.



What, if anything, the feds will do about the problems is unclear. If you're stuck in a clunker clash with a dealer and want actual help, you're better off calling a lawyer, says Dani Liblang, managing partner of Birmingham's Liblang & Associates law firm.
Esquire, bring on the clunk!

"Right now, the government's process for dealing with something like this would just not be immediate enough," Liblang says.



In Michigan, once a dealer signs a deal, it can't be undone, Liblang says, unless the car buyer has done something wrong, such as misrepresenting a trade-in. That includes "yo-yo" scams, in which a dealer sends you home with a brand new car, then calls days later saying your financing "hasn't gone through" and you need to come back in right away to sign a new, more expensive contract.



"Under Michigan law, the dealer has to honor the contract and accept the payments," she says.



Federal law also applies to these situations, and not only allows punitive damages up to $10,000 but also lets attorneys recover fees. In most cases, the only upfront money a client would pay to force loose a clunker deal would be a filing fee of $235 or $350.



So if you've got a double-dealing clunker dealer, dial up an experienced consumer or lemon law attorney. Your old clunker may be headed to the shredder, and maybe your clunky dealer should, too.



boconnor@detnews.com (313) 222-2145

Original here:
Stand up to clunker cretins | detnews.com | The Detroit News

I usually don't post the entire article, so that people will go to the source to read the whole thing if they want to.

But this seemed pretty important. Not just because of the clunkers problems. We've had people here experience that "the financing didn't go through" scheme.

At least in Michigan, the dealer has to honor the original contract and payments. I don't know about the other states.

Notice also it mentions punitive damages. Why yes, that's money into your own pocket, because the dealer did you wrong. And could almost pay off the car, if you were to get the $10,000. amount.

You can check into your local BAR association for their Attorney Referral Service, and see if they have anyone available. Those kinds of consultations are usually lower fees (like under $50) just to air out your problems with them and for them to look over what documents/paperwork you bring with you.

I figure it might be worthwhile for folks to check into that locally. Some people DID incur expenses that would not have happened with a regular car deal, such as a rental car. Or paying for insurance on two cars?

I suppose it will depend on each person's situation and just how bad the dealer was.

Can you win against a dealer? Yes. You can. I did, once, a long time ago. Went to Small Claims Court. I went in with a 15-pound binder chock full of documents, receipts, photos, notes. All put neatly on those pages that peel back and then restick.

I won. He appealed. We went to Superior Court. I won. He appealed. His appeal was turned down. He refused to pay. I attached his bank account.

When I went back to the Small Claims Court after it was all settled to pick up my binder (evidence), the lady said they had been using it as an example of what to do in a Small Claims case. She said that they were kind of hoping I'd leave it for them to continue to use as an example.

Well, some of the stuff I had were receipts that I did need back, and names were all over that stuff. However, you all have FRESH documents and all kinds of paperwork right now. You don't have to accumulate anything. It's pretty clear that there were CARS rules broken, and regular laws as well (depending on what state you're in).

It's kind of like speeding tickets. People often fight speeding tickets, but they did break the law. They might get a reduced fine or traffic school, but the point is they did break the law and have to deal with the consequences.

The rules were posted for the CARS program. Just a like a speed limit sign. What part did they not understand? Even after it was clarified, and consumers were encouraged to report, some dealers STILL did not release the cars. That's like driving by one of those machines that tells you what your current speed is. And you're speeding according to the machine.

You can choose if you want to give the speeding dealer a ticket or not. It's up to you.

 

OMG great post tho I jut scanned it quickly- when I get home I'm going to kick back with a glass of wine and read the whole thing!!! The clunky chicken I LOVE IT!

 

Little bump-up:

Dealers still waiting to get paid, NHTSA sets goal of paying all eligible applications by Sep 30, and many applications may be rejected:

But what constitutes an eligible application is up for debate. The government is reportedly being very strict about the details. If there are mismatching numbers on the applications, the forms are rejected and sent back to the dealer for resubmission. If the buyer was late paying insurance or registration in the past year — the rules require having owned and insured the clunker for at least a year — deals are being shot down, as well, even if the buyer already has the new car.
Buyers disqualified on such technical grounds are getting some support from consumer website Edmunds.com, says spokesman Chintan Talati: "We intend to advocate for consumers who might have been unreasonably rejected after making their purchase and having their clunker disabled."

Officials set Sept. 30 as goal to pay dealers on clunkers - USATODAY.com

------------

More rejections than paid rebates:

The National Automobile Dealers Association says that, more than a week after the Cash for Clunkers program ended, a mere 5.7 percent of all vouchers on traded-in older vehicles have been paid to dealerships. The group took a survey of four states, but says that the numbers accurately reflect the nation as a whole.

...

Perhaps even more surprising, about 6.3 percent of all claims submitted so far have been rejected, according to Massachusetts State Automobile Dealers Association executive vice president Robert O’Koniewski. Since dealers have already taken the vehicles in on trade and completed transactions with customers, it remains unclear what will happen to disqualified “clunkers.”

NADA: Just 5.7% of Clunker claims paid; 6.3% rejected

Check out the comments section too.
----------------

1 + 1 = 3.72??? Numbers don't add up!

Government's Own Numbers Don't Figure
What also threw off analysts in some forecasts was the number of voucher applications the government reported it had received from dealers under the program.
The Department of Transportation (DOT), which administers CARS, reported on Aug. 26 it had received 690,114 Cash for Clunkers voucher applications that were for either the $3,500 or $4,500. As of Sept. 2, the DOT had not changed or updated that figure.
However, the government's own data doesn't add up. In its Aug. 26 press release giving the supposed final tally for the program, the DOT gives the total application voucher number as well as a breakout of the number of vehicles purchased by category and the number of vehicles traded in by category.
None of the numbers are the same.

New Math: Cash for Clunkers Numbers Don't Add Up - Auto Observer
--------------------

Finally, they're staffing at decent levels...remember when it was just two guys named "Bob" doing all the reviews...

The government will boost the number of workers reviewing submissions from 3,000 to 5,000 by the end of the week and plans to finish payments by the end of the month, said a U.S. Department of Transportation official, speaking on condition on anonymity.

U.S. OKs $500 million in rebates for clunkers | Detroit Free Press | Freep.com
----------------

 

Ford Canada is being stupid...

So much for the environment:

Among Ford drivers alone, the company says there are nearly one million Canadians that would qualify for the program. Buyers who choose a new Ford car will get $1,000 while those who purchase a truck or a luxury Lincoln will get $3,000.

Ford climbs aboard clunkers bandwagon

Same darn thing that was done with SUVs, provide more incentives for the gas guzzlers. Yes, that is stupid.

 

I negotiated with my dealer to get all my salvage value back so they don't keep the $50.

They told me they got $197.14 salvage for my 2000 2wd chevy blazer. However, they won't give me anything back yet because they claim it is unclear if the government is going to demand the salvage value back to offset the program cost.

I pointed out in the CARS.gov fag that is goes to the customer but they are saying the dealer side of the CARS.gov says something different. They claim if the government doesn't take it I will get it. So now it is a wait and see stall tactic.

 

Do I get any money for my trade in vehicle in addition to the CARS credit?


YES. The law requires your trade-in vehicle be destroyed. The dealer must disclose to you the scrap value of your vehicle. The dealer is entitled to keep up to $50 of the scrap value for administrative fees. You are entitled to negotiate about who keeps the remaining scrap value. For example, you may use that money toward the price of your new car separate from the CARS credit.


CARS.gov - Car Allowance Rebate System - Helpful Q&As for Consumers - Formerly Referred to as “Cash for Clunkers”

 

Good luck with that. Did you get it in writing? If not, can you?

Next time they say "we're waiting on the government to see if they want the salvage value back" say "okay, put that in writing, and I will wait."

It's quite clear. The government doesn't want the salvage value.

However, it's also quite clear (or rather, not so) in the law that there is no real direction on who gets the salvage value, and the people manning the cars hotlines phones will tell you as much. (You can read it in the law yourself.) The FAQ kind of gives the impression that the consumers should get the salvage value, but that's not what the law actually says.

Basically, most consumers won't get even a part of the salvage value no matter how much they debate with the dealers.

Heck, my dealer is trying to claim all they are getting is $50 for each car, no matter what the size. I called bull on them, especially as I'm in the recycling business, but they won't budge on this at all. I had to pull teeth just to get them to tell me ANYTHING; at first they didn't want to even tell me anything at all about it, even though they are legally required to do so.

 

I thought I was fairly well self-informed about C4C before making my Fit deal, but I have to admit I missed this section about salvage values.

I was not informed of my cars scrap value by the dealer. The only thing the salesman told me was that they were paying a salvage dealer $50 a car to haul them out and crush.

From the looks of it, knowing that beforehand would not have done any good anyway. Wished I would have at least asked the salvage value to see what their reply was.

My car was far from a clunker, just a gas hog, so somebody is making a good profit off the body parts, as they were like new.

Going to check my paperwork to see if the generic $50 value is on anything.

Would like to see the govt research this and if it was widespread, make the dealers split it 50/50. Not going to hold my breath waiting for that though.

 

Then as far as the salvage yards go, I have read reports where they disable the engine and drivetrain, then can salvage body parts. Other sites claim that the body has to be run through a grinder.

 

It's sort-of both. The law is very heavy on stressing that the cars eventually have to be shredded.

However, they are allowed to pull off parts.

However, as most parts places and junk yards usually let the cars sit for a good long while before destroying them as a matter of procedure, most of these cars do not fit into the standard practice of how they operate. I believe there is also a timeline for shredding. So most of these cars are going to be crushed and/or shredded without having parts yanked off of them.

A shame, really. There are TONS and millions of reusable parts in these vehicles, no matter what the age. Heck, my clunker had fairly brand new tires on it and a brand new serpentine belt, less than a year old, and they most likely won't be yanked. They will just be cast offs of the process.

I also wish that I had known before hand that my sister's car's tape deck didn't work, I would have pulled mine out to give to her.

 

Plenty of money can be made from the salvage vehicles...

Used vehicle parts, not including engines or engine parts, can be sold for six months by salvage yards crushing clunkers. After that time period the vehicle must be destroyed, according to a press release from AAA of the Carolinas.
“If you’re driving a clunker and you didn’t turn it in for cash, any spare parts not related to the engine can be sold to the junkyard,” said Tom Crosby, spokesman for AAA of the Carolinas.
And if you’re looking to keep your clunker but it needs an upgrade, the spare part market for cars from 1986 or newer is good right now, Crosby said.


Help still available for clunkers | clunkers, government, help - News - Jacksonville Daily News

 

What I got in writing at the time of the deal and signed by the Sales Manager and myself was as follows:

"If scrap value is given to dealership, total value will be forwarded to David as part of the deal."

The dealer told me that the $197.14 was given to them. What they are claiming is that the government may demand the salvage value less $50 from the dealer to help fund the program. When it is clear the government will not demand the money they will be able to pay me. They claim they don't want to pay me and later find out they have to also pay the government.

I'm sure I'll get my money - it's just how long do I have to wait?

 

Did you also get the $197.14 in writing? Or was that only verbal?

Personally, I'd not expect your money anytime soon. I expect that they will first have to be paid for the $4500 for the trade.. and then they will still jerk you around a bit. I expect.. many moons.

But mega kudos to you for getting this in writing and getting them to give you all the scrappage value even though they are legally entitled to $50.

And I suppose some kudos to the dealership for doing this for you. Must not be a bad one if they were willing to do so.