Could be worse, check out this older post on Edmunds, before The Rule was posted:

"
By brickbradford on July 15, 2009 5:54 AM

I had a deal negotiated through for a Honda Fit. The dealer then hit me with a Florida Sales Tax (expected) of over $1200, based on the negotiated price, not on the negotiated price minus the $4500 cash for clonker trade in. He claims the $4500 is subjected to the sales tax instead of the normal "negotiated price minus trade in value=calculation of sales tax due." I found out this applies, according to dealers, to factory rebates also. The sales tax is applied, according to at least one dealer, to the agreed price of the car, not to the agreed price minus the rebate, minus the cash for clonkers trade in value. Taxing the $4500 under the sales tax, I thought, was a State decision. Is Florida going to tax the $4500, or $3500, as the case may be??? If so, the program loses part of the incentive to use it.



By brickbradford on July 15, 2009 5:58 AM

Instead of paying a little over $900 sales tax, I would have had to pay over $1200 in that Honda Fit Deal. Also, the dealer then tagged a $299 dealer administration fee to the agreed price of the car deal, which made the sales tax higher. The dealers, at least around Central Florida, all seem to have this dealer admin fees, which only mean they pass on to consumers the cost of cleaning the car and preparing it for the showroom when they get it from the manufacturer. I don't think I go for that.


From:
"Savvy Shopper: Make the Most of the Cash You'll Get for Your Clunker" Edmunds Daily

 

You know what...they DID. And that is all they are giving. All things considered, I didn't feel it was worth arguing about. According to the dealer they aren't going to make anything on the scraps. And you know what? If they DO, I don't really care. I got such a great deal on the car I wasn't going to make an issue about the scrap value. I DID bring it up and it sounded like they were well prepared for the question. And this will sound strange perhaps...because it's not like me to feel sorry for a car dealer....but I know what they have been through with this C4C program....misleading information and lots of hassle. Yeah, they'll sell a few more cars from it but some of them are already opting NOT to do it because of the added hassle. If I weren't getting such a good deal (and it helped that he just learned about how to apply the 4500 against the purchase price TODAY, which saved me over $300, then sold me the HondaCare warranty for the best price I've seen anywhere...AND threw in the wheel locks, floor mats, and cargo tray; I might have pushed the salvage value issue a little harder, but it just didn't seem worth it when all else was considered.


Warner

 

Hey Krizz, I don't think anyone will be going after the consumers on that one. They'll be going after dealers.

Dealers are pocketing the money from the scrap, not giving it to the consumer. What does a consumer know about scrap? I don't know anything about the business, but just looking up a couple things makes me see that it's got to be worth more than a buck.

I gladly took the $75.00 for my old car, because I needed to move it that day. I'd called the previous day and talked to someone at the place, and while I felt in my heart and mind that it was worth more, what the heck was I going to do with it?

I don't care what it's called, like fraud or lying or taking advantage or breaking the law, I care about the action that the dealer took during this program.

And I think it would be fitting for those who so obviously violated the law to be banned from future CARS options.

There are big time repercussions for those dealers:
§ 599.517 Other sanctions.

The procedures and penalties described in this subpart are not the only procedures
and penalties that may apply to someone who violates the CARS Act or submits a false
certification required by this rule. Anyone who submits false information on these forms
or otherwise violates the CARS Act or this part may not only be subject to the procedures
and penalties described in this subpart, but also civil and criminal penalties. Such civil and criminal penalties may include penalties three times any amount falsely claimed to be
due from the United States pursuant to the False Claims Act (31 U.S.C. 3729), or
imprisonment of up to 5 years and fines of up to $250,000 (18 U.S.C. 1001). In addition,
NHTSA may request that the Attorney General seek appropriate injunctive relief to
address violations of the CARS Act or this part.

Elsewhere (111):
(ii) In the case of a dealer recommend that the Administrator suspend or revoke
registration in the program or in the case of a salvage auction or disposal facility,
recommend that the Administrator suspend or revoke participation eligibility in the
program.
(4) In the case of either paragraphs (d)(3)(i) or (ii) of this section, the NHTSA
Chief Counsel will prepare a case file with recommended actions. A record of any prior
violations by the same person or entity, shall be forwarded to the Administrator with the
case file.
§ 599.506 Notice of Violation.
(a) The agency has the authority to assess a civil penalty for any violation of the
CARS Act or this part. The penalty may not be more than $15,000 for each violation.

Yes, the dealer CAN have their participation/eligibility revoked.
(110)
1) If a dealer’s registration or a salvage auction or disposal facility’s participation
eligibility is suspended or revoked, as of the date of suspension or revocation, the dealer,
salvage auction or disposal facility will not be considered registered or eligible to
participate in the CARS Program, and must cease participating in the program.
(2) A dealer whose registration has been suspended will not be entitled to any
rights or reimbursement of funds for new transactions submitted as of the effective date
of the suspension or revocation.

------

 

And that is EXACTLY how they want you to feel. Like you should be grateful for the $4,500 and should ignore the money that should be yours.

Would you take the same devil-may-care attitude if it was your employer?

"Warner, you should be happy you have a job at all, and we've decided to short you $150.00, don't argue, or you won't have a job."

THAT is the point. Not whether or not you got a swell deal or have a swell job. The principle, it matters. It really matters.

What if it was "I can get you a great deal on such and such...of course, it's stolen, illegal"? It might sound OK until this happens...your own stuff is stolen.

What if you see someone else wearing your stolen item? They got a great deal. They didn't ask questions. Someone profited from messing you over by stealing from you.

The dealer gets the money from the government. They are not required to participate. They chose to participate to sell cars. And they also chose to break the rules, the law and try to take extra money from you.

If they are remotely smart, they'll send out a letter with a check to all parties when they have obtained the actual recovered scrap value for that person's vehicle, subtracting no more that $50.00, and apologize for the delay. In addition, they ought to throw in an oil change or something.

Rather than suffering the embarrassment of having their deals investigated, their "Oops, we goofed" message with a check would help a lot. That's my suggestion for any dealers who happen to be reading this.

 

I know you're right...and you know you're right. And at the end of the day I know I could have made a bigger deal about it. I don't think it would have made a stitch of difference though. And here's how it played out in my mind. IF (and that's a big IF) they did anything against the rules, it WILL catch up with them. The finance guy told me they had to watch a 3 hour webinar just yesterday on the whole CARS program. So whatever information was available as of yesterday, he was up on it. And I've been following it like crazy so I was up on it. In everything I've seen, there is no direct mention of what a reasonable scrap value IS. And as you know...the second part of my train of thought was: I got my car for $900 under INVOICE, plus they applied the $4,500 as a tax credit as opposed to a rebate, so that saved me another $325. Then they sold me the HondaCare warranty for $100 less than I could find it anywhere else. I didn't really feel like busting anyone's balls at that point. If that's a sign of weakness, so be it. I am incredibly happy with the deal that I got.

Warner

 

Trade=1995 Chevy Blazer 4WD (the Red Blaze)
Fit= Red base model Fit
Dealer=Colonial Honda, Colonial Heights, Va.

Picked up Fit last night (7/27/09). Place was BUSY! Had to wait to hand over check, etc. Lots of deals going on. We shopped around and got the best deal at this place, mostly through e-mail. They have a dedicated internet rep, a nice guy named Fred. Fred gave us an out-the-door price via e-mail and answered some basic questions over the phone. The delivery was handled by an equally nice guy named Maurice. Drove the car Thursday and put down a deposit of $500. Back Monday to finalize the deal. Monday was our choice, due to scheduling.

We got the full Monty ($4,500) for the Red Blaze and had all the paperwork at hand. (Registration, title, proof of insurance). They folks were very appreciative that we had everything with us. They, and other dealers we talked to, have a bit of anxiety about Cash for Clunkers. First, they're afraid that the money is going to run out and they'll get hung for a deal. Secondly, they're worried that Uncle Sam is going to get picky about the paperwork. Can't blame them.

That said, Colonial Heights was very willing to do the Cash for Clunkers thing. Other dealers we talked to seemed reluctant.

Oh...we love the Fit so far. Our third Honda. (83 Civic, 93 Accord--which our married daughter is still driving.)

Glad to have found this forum. I have a couple questions already, which I'll be posting. But now I need to do a little work!


Joe

 

But who made the "webinar"?

I don't think the government would be telling dealerships that the old cars are worth a dollar. Then there is no administrative fee the dealer can recover for the extra paperwork. Remember, their administrative fee is supposed to be coming from the scrap value of the vehicle and nowhere else.

So it sounds to me like they had someone (not officially related to the program) whip up a little something that either left out important info, or told them the wrong thing.

And it won't catch up to any dealers unless people report it. Or someone at the other end notices some huge differences in the value on the paperwork. It will be listed.

I have more faith in the "average citizen" than I do in government employees catching mistakes or pointing out something odd to someone else. Especially if several "average citizens" point it out, because it's THEIR money being messed with.

Do the math. 200,000 cars sold = 200,000 people, right? And if each person was shorted $150.00...

P.S. Everyone who says they don't really care about that extra money, please send it to me if you get it later on. Thanks. I really appreciate that.

 

Woo hoo! Welcome Joe!

I have a base Fit and I did my deal mostly over the Internet and by phone too!

Going in prepared was the best thing you could have done. I wonder how many people may lose out because they weren't prepared.

You also have just doubled your mpg, halved your gas cost...and don't forget, the FIT takes REGULAR gas, not the Premium that was required for the Blazer!

 

Here's what I found on the Auto Channel News website:

"The NHTSA has noted several times that finalization of key elements of the bill - including how dealers will be authorized to issue vouchers, and how fuel-inefficient cars will be scrapped once exchanged for vouchers - would require time to finalize, and established July 24 as the target date to issue complete details. In the meanwhile, the association has established a website - cars.gov - to extend information and has paired with the North American Dealer Association (NADA) to conduct webinars about the program."

I'm assuming this is the webinar that he was referring to.....


Warner

 

Between "off-lot" depreciation and sales tax (depending on your state some have caps) that would pretty much eat up the savings made by the CFC trade.

 

"Old Gold", our 1990 Volvo 740 GLE 16V with 184K on the clock, was lined-up for lethal injection today. It's giving its life for my wife's new daily, a taffeta white base auto Fit.

I was the dealership's first C4C new-car delivery. I had all my paperwork in perfect order, but they were still a bit fuzzy on the whole deal. Still, it was a good experience, given that they are a low-key dealer. I've been using them for purchase and service of VWs and Hondas for twenty-five years.

The old Volvo was part of a family fleet of used cars I assembled to provide all of us a means to get to work. We didn't plan on getting another car anytime soon, let alone a new car, but the $4500 of gubmint cheese was compelling.

I've been lurking here for quite a while. It feels good to move into the light!

 

Excellent! Good for you and your family!

I'm sure the dealership appreciated you having your paperwork organized.

All those new forms and rules, those are new to you, new to the dealership, and even new to the government. Created just for the CARS program. So there are no "experts" on the forms or experienced dealers. No consumers who bought their last car that way 5 years ago under the program.

Everyone is muddling through it the best they can.

So, as you were the first delivery, were there others waiting? You said it's a low-key dealership, was it busy? Most of the news articles I've read seem to come from big dealerships in over-populated metro areas. Of course THEY will be busy.

About how long did it take for your paperwork?

 

Two other C4C deals were in process, but they didn't yet have their papers in order. I went in the morning and the floor was pretty slow. It took a total of two hours, which included me posing for photos with our new ride. Seems they will run a local ad highlighting the whole cash for clunkers thing. I just stood there with a smirk.

 

Thanks, TW. The Red Blaze was actually my college-age son's car, but in my wife's name. He is going to be in a situation in which he won't need a car for a couple of years and was looking to sell it. We were thinking about getting a used Honda or something to use as an everyday car and relegate the old mini-van to occasional use: trips to Costco, kayak/canoe trips, haulage, etc. C4C allowed us to kill two birds with a single, subsidized stone.

I don't think the Red Blaze EVER tasted premium gas, BTW.

 

Only two hours! I wish I'd had your dealer when I was buying a Fit back in December.

You have GOT to clip and save that ad if you are featured. That's really cool. And we'd love to see it too. I would, anyway.

 

I really enjoy hearing the stories behind each person's purchase. Stories like yours that make it seem kind of magical? Or fate smiling upon you. You got exactly what you needed, when you needed it to happen. Awesome!

 

Houston Chronicle says:
Q: Is the scrap value of a car eligible for trade-in as a clunker counted in addition to the government rebate?
A: Yes, the scrap value of the vehicle is an amount calculated by the dealer that can be added to the rebate to bring down the total cost of the new vehicle being leased or purchased. The law requires dealers to provide consumers with a written estimate of the scrap value. The rules also allow dealers to deduct $50 administrative costs from the scrap value estimate to cover the cost of breaking up the vehicle into saleable parts and disabling the engine with a prescribed chemical solution. Dealers are not required to reduce the purchase price by the scrap value estimate, but it is your right to negotiate for that amount to be applied to the bottom line on your deal. If a dealer says your vehicle has no scrap value, another dealer might disagree. Shop it around until you're satisfied with the numbers.

Some answers to your clunker questions | Business | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

 

Considering how detailed the rules were on other things, like proof of registration and insurance, it would have been nice if the Feds had specified exactly what was to happen with scrap value over the $50 that the dealers get to keep.

Still haven't decided exactly how annoyed I am that the finance guy only told me verbally that the scrap value was $200, and I didn't push the issue as to what would happen to the other $150. More annoyed with myself than I am with the dealership.

I've currently got an email into the Ohio IRS to see what their take on handling the sales tax is. In Ohio, a trade in reduces your taxable amount by the amount you get for your trade.

Of course, the dealership recorded the $4,500 C4C $ as a down payment, not a "trade in", so I was taxed on the full sale price I negotiated.

Considering the current state of Ohio's budget issues, I've got a feeling the state is going to be just fine with that, more sales tax money (approx $300) for them.

The flip side for me, though, is that when figuring out my state income tax for this year, instead of taking the standard deduction, the other option is to declare the total amount of state sales tax paid for the year, and if that figure is higher (it will be), use it instead of the standard deduction.

I'll just have to pull all my records for my debit card to back figure what sales tax I've paid for the first half of the year, seeing as how I shredded all my reciepts, not thinking I'd be buying a car this year.

 

Yeah, they dropped the ball there, didn't they? But it does say that you were supposed to be given a WRITTEN estimate, which I'm guessing is that form that we've looked at several times.

Do you have copies of EVERYTHING that is shown in the pdf "The Rule"?

I think you really should send a note off to the email fraud address.

We're going to use YOUR number, $150.00 and apply it to all the transactions, let's have a nice round figure of 200,000 cars/individuals.

1 person = $150.00 (not a big deal...)

10 people = $1,500.00 (got more than that off the car via CARS)

100 people = $15,000.00 (hey now, that will buy another car, this is serious)

1,000 people = $150,000.00 (and THAT will buy a small home in many areas)

10,000 people = $1,500,000.00 (that will buy a home in my area)

100,000 people = $15,000,000.00 (I think you can buy the entire state of New Hampshire for that)

200,000 people = $30,000,000.00

THIRTY MILLION DOLLARS

That's your $150.00 and Billburgs and FogyinFits and warners and a bunch of other people that didn't get their money either.

Remember that there are maybe 225,000 vehicles that might be sold. Add on another $3,750,000.00

This is why I'm encouraging everyone to look into it. Someone is getting that money. It might as well be you, getting your share.

P.S. I'd like to remind everyone that I called dibs first on the unwanted/unclaimed/unassigned money.

 

Still waiting for dealer to get his ducks in a row. Ive had deposit on car for three weeks BBP sport MT. CARS program money considered a "rebate". In NJ rebates are taxable. Haven't discussed scrap value yet but last car I scrapped was $200 AND THEY PICKED IT UP on a flatbed. Hopefully I'll hear from him soon. I'm really envious of all you guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!