Although it would have been better to have raised a question about this at the time of sale, you may have a valid basis for lodging a complaint against the dealer. Here is the specific language from the "Dealer Certifications" document:

• I have retained no more than $50.00 of the scrappage value as payment for any of the
dealer’s administrative costs in connection with this CARS transaction.
• I have not charged the Purchaser any additional fees for participating in the CARS
program in this transaction.

 

i just got back from the dealer and traded in my 01 xterra and got my 4500.

everything went smooth and i didnt pay squat at the dealer

 

Got my Cash for Clunkers deal done today. :-)
Went pretty smooth in my opinion.

09 Honda Fit Sport MT - Orange Revolution

Wow! Big difference in drive between the manual and the auto.

Enjoyed the drive home from the dealer and didn't have any problems with keeping up with traffic (they drive 70-85mph in this interstate). I was able to go 65mph-70mph with very decent acceleration.

 

Actually my husband did pipe up both during the "disclosure" portion and the final signing of papers. The manager told us how our trade-in wasn't worth squat because they had to destroy the only valuable part - the engine - and how they had to pay $150 to "run it through the auction". (It had a decent aftermarket radio in it, good tires and 4 hubcaps I could probably have ebayed if I had wanted to mess with it).

When we signed the final papers and asked why we were being charged the $50 the excuse was "we're just doing what our lawyers told us to do."

I do really chalk it up (mostly) to their ignorance, as the rest of the dealings we had with them were pretty much on the up and up - can't say as much for most of the other dealerships we visited before going there.

~Sandy

 

I'm in the middle of the process. Good experience thus far. Some pangs of sadness to see my RR off after a troublesome 12 years and 140k.

Getting more excited about my choice in a 09 Fit Sport, especially having found this forum. First time posting too. I'm planning a roadtrip from Houston to San Francisco as soon as I get it. BTW, anyone driven a Fit across the country?

 

The engine can still be processed as scrap. It's probably not the individual salesperson's fault, they probably are just doing what they were told to do.

The person/people responsible are the ones who are not reading or don't understand the CARS program. Or choose to ignore the rules.

Report them, you can do it via email. While all the details are still fresh in your mind...if you can pry yourself out of your NEW CAR for just few moments. LOL!

There are state programs in California and Texas. There has been talk of extending the current program.

My idea is to create a yearly program that is designed to help get the worst of the worst off the road. Something that will require an assessment, sort of like the Texas program where the car fails emissions testing, but passes safety regulations. They have income requirements too, where the credit is given only to less than wealthy people.

Maybe combined with a higher MPG requirement for the new car and a lower maximum for the old car.

Or maybe have a focus on a particular year of cars that didn't get good gas mileage. Or group of years. A five-year block of cars, like 85-89. That get less than 15 mpg.

Anyway...any potential program or continuation will have them examine the successes and failures of the current program. They can't make an adjustment or update or change wording if they don't know about a problem. Right?

It's up to individuals with problems to report them. People that get ill food or beverage need to report it for any recall or closure of a facility to occur. If the headlights in the Prius fail, aren't covered under warranty, it's up to the people to report it, so it can be investigated and possibly recalled.

None of the places can read minds, whether it's a local restaurant that got bad shipment, a grocery store that has tainted peanut-butter, or the government administering a program for autos.

It's up to us to tell them, and it's up to them to tell us. Of potential pitfalls or dangers.

What would have been useful would have been a minimum scrap value, that could be looked up, just like the mpg on the Fuel Economy site. It's a commodity, it's bought, sold, traded. All the information needed is available. The weight of the vehicle, the engine weight, etc. The same way we have to choose what engine/transmission we have to get the Fuel Economy information, that could also generate a scrap value.

But this dealership you went to is definitely not following the procedure as shown in the paperwork. I'm pretty sure I'm correct in my interpretation of what is and isn't allowed as far as the fee and the scrappage value.

There is one thing that I don't know...if the paperwork is turned down by the government, what happens to the consumer? I'd guess that the consumer may end up having to file a fraud complaint at that time anyway. Might as well do it now.

 

Congrats! Sounds like your dealer was organized! Did you get a scrap value on your car and did your dealer assess a fee from that scrap value?

 

You'll get a kick out of this, if you're getting rid of the Range Rover, it's this year's reliablity from Consumer Reports on manufacturers:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/Reliability.jpg

"Range Rover, it's so unreliable, we can't make this chart big enough to show how awful it is!"

Land Rover, at the very bottom. Compare with Honda. The best Honda model for reliability is the Fit. Honda is at #3. Acura #2. Scion's three models bumped Honda out of first place. Honda has a lot more models, but they have a real winner in the Fit.

I gotta say, after all the problems I had with my old car, was thrilled just to have a car that starts. Consistently. LOL!

You're going to love that aspect too.

Let us know what the dealer does in regards to the scrap value and the possible administration fee.

 

I didn't really bother with the scrap value. No assessed scrap cost. In a way, they did give me something since I've paid about $1000 less than most of the post here for a Sport Manual - I think. (12,500 - OTD)

 

That should be on the paperwork you signed. It's not something they can just "skip".

The form is shown on page 122 of The Rule pdf which can be found and downloaded here:
CARS.gov - Car Allowance Rebate System - Official Information - Formerly Referred to as “Cash for Clunkers”

These are real documents, and have consequences:
page 125, which includes page 122 as part of the "having been read"
• I have authority to execute this document,
• I have read each of the foregoing certifications,
• I understand that payment of the CARS program credit amount is conditioned on
compliance with these certifications,
• This document, and all attachments, were either prepared by me or prepared under
my direction or supervision,
• The information set forth in this document, and all attachments, is, to the best of
my knowledge and belief, true, accurate, and complete,
• I am aware that there are significant penalties for submitting false information,
including the possibility of civil penalties under the CARS program, suspension or
revocation of continued participation in the CARS program, as well as fines and/or
imprisonment.

This notice is provided pursuant to the Privacy Act of 1974, 5 USC § 552a: This information is solicited under the authority of Public Law 111-32, 123 Stat. 1859. Furnishing the information is voluntary, but failure to provide all or part of the information may result in disapproval of your request for a credit on this purchase or lease transaction under the Cars Program. The principal purposes for collecting the information are to determine if purchase or lease transactions are eligible for credits under the CARS Program, to ensure proper disposal of trade-in vehicles, to prevent, identify and penalize fraud in connection with the Program

------

If the paperwork is turned down, and you've accepted a scrap value of a dollar, you have just given your car away for a dollar, AND you're on the hook for the additional $4,500. That's what I'm thinking may happen. Someone will have to pony up the $4,500. And the dealership will have signed documents from you stating you have accepted next to nothing for your old car.

Remember that the dealership is in the business of selling cars. It doesn't much matter to them where the $4,500 comes from, as long as it isn't out of their pocket.

There is the possibility of rampant abuse, sales that far exceed the program, tons of paperwork being rejected leaving the consumer on the hook.

I know I am kind of an alarmist. I can quickly analyze potential harm. Worst case scenarios. Much of the time, the worst case scenario DOES NOT HAPPEN. And that's great. LOL!

But for the same reason I totally encouraged everyone to get to the dealer ASAP to take advantage of the program, I am also now encouraging everyone to review their paperwork, and use that fraud reporting by email if there appears to be anything ODD. Like dollar scrap values. That's not right.

Sooner it's done, the better. Maybe all that has to happen is for a memo sent out to all the participating dealers. And for a new paper to be filled out with a real scrap value assessment.

Cover your own butt.

 

WOW. I'm feeling better by the minute about my choice. Thanks for the note TaffetaWhite;708203 I'll let you know how things go.

 

Have an answer for you on the EPA mpg changes:

WASHINGTON – A last-minute update of federal fuel economy data caused confusion today among shoppers looking at cash-for-clunkers deals, making some old cars and trucks ineligible just as the program launched.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said today that a review of data on 30,000 models from the past 25 years in preparation for the clunkers program changed the eligibility of about 100 vehicles. Of those, roughly half had their mileage increased above 18 m.p.g., making them ineligible, while the other half were found less efficient and could now qualify.
Mileage change throws some clunkers in and out of voucher plan | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

 

70 pending deals at this dealership, 30 at another:
Cash-for-clunkers hopefuls pack dealers in metro Detroit | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

 

Here is a detailed account of my experience with the cash for clunkers trade in tonight. I traded in my 2000 Dodge Ram Van for a 2009 Honda Fit Sport Auto in Orange Revolution Metallic. I got a GREAT deal on it! Here's how it all played out:

5:15 - Arrived at dealership and met with my salesman

5:15-5:40 Provided all documentation to salesman and found that the letter from my insurance company wouldn't satisfy the requirement for proof of insurance - at least not in the dealer's mind. So I called my insurance agency and they faxed over the necessary insurance cards

5:40-5:50 Had to listen to the guy in the "business office" offer me all kinds of protection crap for the car. He DID move along pretty quickly though, so not a real big deal. Signed the papers saying I didn't want any of it and walked back to saleman's office.

5:50-6:05 Waited for salesman to return to his office

6:05-6:10 Filled out CARS survey paperwork

6:10-6:40 Sat and waited for sales rep - I had no idea where he went for a half hour but eventually he showed up and walked me to the finance office.

6:40 - 7:15 In the finance office. I had already secured a GREAT finance rate with Capital One - 4.68% for 60 months. I was actually SHOCKED when he told me that he could beat it and gave me 4.44% for 60 months. Cool! And it's financed through Honda so I won't have to worry about any hassles that may be associated with the Capital One option.

We also talked about the Honda warranty options. I was convinced that I wasn't going with one this time, but after negotiating with the guy for a while I decided it would make sense and went with the 6 year, 120k mile, Zero deductible HondaCare warranty for $799. This competes with any of the internet pricing I've seen ($100 LESS than College Hills Honda sells it for), and he showed me on a chart that it is the lowest amount that dealers are allowed to sell this warranty for. He said he makes a point on it himself so he was fine with selling it for that amount. It helps to know what things really cost when you are negotiating!

In addition, and this is IMPORTANT for you if you are working with the CARS program, he told me they had to watch a 3 hour webinar program this morning and found that there are different ways they can handle the $4,500 trade in money. ONE of the ways (and the BEST way!) was to take that off of the purchase price directly. What good does that do, you ask? Well, at the sales tax rate that I pay (7.25%) it means not paying sales tax on that $4,500. That saved me $326.25 right off the bat!

Remember when I told you I got a GREAT price on the car? Well, here's the specifics of my transaction:

2009 Honda Fit Sport auto

$16,479.00 Purchase price
$ 151.65 Doc preparation fee
$ 896.00 Sales tax
$ 81.00 Title and plate transfer fees
$ 799.00 6 year/120k mile/$0 deductible HondaCare warranty
$ 25.00 Illinois fee

$18,431.65 Total cost

-$4501.00 Cash for clunkers money

$13,930.65 Total financed at 4.44% for 60 Months

$259.32 monthly payment for 60 months

Oh yeah.....the dealer also threw in floor mats, wheel locks, and a cargo tray. Not big expensive stuff but $72, $75, and $35 totalling another $182 (at College Hills Honda prices, which are low).

My purchase price was $732 UNDER invoice (not even counting the floor mats, cargo tray, or wheel locks) according to Edmunds who lists an invoice price (including destination charges) of $17,211

NOT BAD I think!



Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!

Warner

 

Ok, just got home from picking up my SSM sport MT, and going out to dinner.

Easy stuff first.

Since I already had it set up from last Tuesday, it only took about an hour and a half to get everything done. OTD, $13,300 + $4,500 C4C. They screwed up on my 30 day tags, forgetting that they couldn't transfer my truck plates to a car. That didn't come up until AFTER all the paperwork had been signed, so they basically had to give me the 30 day tags, and I saved a couple bucks there.

Interestingly enough, this particular dealership, Roush (not the performance Roush!), will extend the Honda warranty on the powertrain out to 7 years/100,000 miles, as long as I get all the service work done there, at no charge.

So, all in all pretty smooth.

Now to the scrap value.

There was no paperwork on the scrap value, I actually had to bring it up. The closer/finance guy actually told me that the value would be $200. By this time, both him and my salesman both knew I had read thru the rules that had been released Friday. I asked where the other $150 was going, considering they got to keep $50 of it. He said that he wasn't sure yet, but possibly back to government. It is somewhat unclear in the rules, as it doesn't specifically say that the excess money goes back to the consumer. It just says the dealership can keep $50.

I brought up some of the stories from here at FitFreak about scrap values of $1.00, and he just sort of shuddered and said there was no way they would try to do something like that. I was basically ok with them not attempting to charge any kind of disposal fee, since I got $4,500 out of what, at best, would have been an $800 '92 F150 sold privately. An extra $150 off the loan would have been nice, but I was happy to not have to get into an argument over the rules had they tried to charge me something extra on the scrap issue.

I have a different take than TW does. I think some lawyers out there are going to get wind of this scrap issue, with people getting screwed at a dollar scrap value, and/or having to pay a scrap fee, and are going to start filing lawsuits, in the hopes that they can combine enough of them, if this is happening widely enough, to get a class action suit covering any offending dealerships.

I did my part, providing them with a free and clear title, 3 years of registrations, and 18 months of proof of insurance. They are the ones that screwed up on the scrap paperwork. If the government is going to go after anyone, it'll be the dealerships, IMO.

Like I said, I'm not upset about the scrap issue, it's a wash, as far as I'm concerned. All in all, it was a very smooth experience that went really well. As an aside, this is a employee owned dealership, old man Roush sold it to the employees back in the early - mid '90's. Not sure if that made a difference, but I was treated far better at Roush than I was at Immke Honda, where I actually test drove a Fit.

One other thing.

This dealership will be taking no more C4C deals after tomorrow! They are worried that there is no mechanism from the government to let them know when the money will run out, and they don't want to be on the hook for signing a deal where they have to come up with the $4,500 themselves it the government runs out of money. My salesman turned down one C4Cdeal tonight, because the car wouldn't be in for close to 8 weeks, and he's unsure of a second deal, because the car the person wants is on the transporter, but he doesn't think it'll get to the dealership before the money runs out.

If you really want to do a C4C deal, go now, don't wait, and take something off the lot, even if it is not your first color choice. I'm really happy I set this up Tuesday. My Fit is very reminiscent of my old '85 GTI, a little less torque, but it was great driving it tonight. Love it!

 

I have a junker... worth $500 and eligable.

Has anyone thought of buying a fit just to resell it? I don't need one at this point. I figured if I can sell a fit sport manual for $15k, with 30 miles on it, I've already got more than double the value of my clunker.

I don't know if this is feasible though.

I can buy the car cash in hand, but best price around here is sticker.

 

Page 123 of The Rule:

The new vehicle is being purchased or, in the case of a lease, leased for a period of not
less than five (5) years.

Does the five year requirement apply to purchases. I know it applies to leases. Removing the center section ends up with this:
The new vehicle is being purchased or leased for a period of not
less than five (5) years.

I'm not sure about that. Any English majors here? How about lawyers?

Edit add on:
Found the answer in the FAQ:
Does the program apply if I want to lease a vehicle, or must I purchase a vehicle?
Under the program, you may purchase a new vehicle or lease a new vehicle, provided the lease period for the new vehicle is at least five years.
http://www.cars.gov/index.php/faq


They specifically separate leases from purchases.

 

What makes the difference to me as it's written is the first comma and the word "leased" after the second comma. If the 5 year period was intended to apply to a purchase, I believe they would have just left the center section out, as you noted. I'm not a lawyer, but I would HIGHLY doubt if they could restrict a person from selling a car that they purchased.

On the other hand, if you bought to resell, you'd have to calculate the costs of:

1 - Value lost driving it off the lot.

2 - Buyer wouldn't be buying a new car, and wouldn't be eligible for new car loan rates, as you are not a dealer. This would make it more difficult to sell.

3 - You'd lose whatever you paid for sales tax, plates, doc fees, etc...not to mention whatever your clunker was actually worth.

Could one make money doing this? Sure, but it's not guaranteed. Would it be worth the effort? I doubt it.

Just my opinion,

Warner

 

Krizz, sounds pretty good. At least they gave you a decent scrap value, and yes, the money does go to you. It does NOT go to the government or the dealer. I'm positive. But I could be wrong.

"The program requires the scrapping of your eligible trade-in vehicle, and that the dealer disclose to you an estimate of the scrap value of your trade-in. The scrap value, however minimal, will be in addition to the rebate, and not in place of the rebate."
CARS.gov - Car Allowance Rebate System - Home - Formerly Referred to as “Cash for Clunkers”

Who benefits from the rebate? You do. So you benefit from the scrap value too.
----------

"
Do I have to pay State or local sales tax on the amount of the CARS program credit?
The question of whether a consumer must pay State or local sales tax on the amount of the CARS program credit would depend on the sales tax law of each State or locality. Consumer should review the law of their respective States or consult a tax advisor to answer this question."


CARS.gov - Car Allowance Rebate System - Helpful Q&As for Consumers - Formerly Referred to as “Cash for Clunkers”
---------

 

Warner, all good...but what is the extra dollar for? Please, PLEASE tell me they didn't give you a dollar for your old car as scrap value.