I used to buy the arguments made by wdb and the BOM - until I read some books on the subject. The best is "Alcohol Can Be a Gas" by David Blume (Welcome to Alcohol Can Be A Gas! | Permaculture & Alcohol Can Be A Gas).

To wdb - It is the high price of diesel to plant, harvest, dry and ship corn that drove up corn price, not ethanol. We have about a 1.8 billion bushel surplus of corn right now. 85% of all US corn goes to feed beef, corn ethanol uses only the sugar and starch in the corn that the cattle can't digest, not the protein and cellulose that they can digest with their 4 stomachs. The DDG (dried distillers grain) left over after making corn ethanol is still all fed to cattle as an even better feed. There is no loss.

To the BOM - All cars made after about 1982, when E10 was mandated by Congress, are ethanol proof. All the pumps, hoses, seals, gaskets, tanks and lines are resistant to any concentration of ethanol. Minnesota recently went to E20 as a state minimum. (this is not the case for Methanol, which will eat your fuel system).

And to jrlnc - With car engines designed for gas, ethanol does indeed get a little less mileage. Just for the fun of it, I converted my 1997 Civic to E85 with a fuel injector pulse width extender made for the Brazilian market. I get 15% less mileage on my Honda Civic - 30 vs. 35 with gas. But it runs great on the 105 octane stuff - and my Civic needs all the performance boost it can get.

Ethanol is not a scam - Big Oil is. Corn ethanol is somewhat of a scam, too, at only 200 gallons per acre, but there are many crops that yield 800 or more like sugar beets.

We simply have to stop sending trillions of dollars to terrorists and dictators - see Robert Zubrin's book Energy Victory" (Energy Victory by bestselling author Robert Zubrin). Short term, I'm all for drilling off-shore and in Anwar, But, I'm sticking to as much US ethanol as I can burn.

Thanks

 

Lose the ethanol!!! It's like "drill baby drill". Republican lip service to a problem. All slogans no content. Truly make vehicles get better mileage, period! Mandate it! Sitting on your ass, praying about it (doing nothing), is what Bush wants. Quit looking out for the oil industry! Corn based ethanol (fertilizer, fuel for equipment and subsidies) is not a solution just a distraction.

 

I just noticed this too, about a week ago. I always buy sunoco gas and they have increased it. So I may switch to BP or something else.

 

honestly if they want to put in E10 or E20 fine. We'll lose gas mileage. FINE. BUT they need to bring the stuff down in price. bring it back down to 2.00 or 2.50 and i'll be fine with the E10.

 

If all cars made after 1982 are ethanol proof, then why doesn't chevy put that beloved "flex fuel" badge on every car they sell?
I don't believe that for 1 second. Our shop had 3 cars come in the past week with seized fuel pumps. All of them were corroded from excessive ethanol. They weren't hondas mind you, just Mercedes and BMWs. I actually had to replace one of them myself in a 3 series.
I agree that methanol is harmful because it's alchohol. But isn't Ethanol alchohol too.

I dont' believe ethanol is a solution at all. It's more of an assistant at that.
I think we should focus on burning fuel more efficiently through gas direct injection, and converting heat into electrical energy.

 

BOM: They don't put the flex-fuel badge on unless the car is equipped with an injector system to accommodate straight E85.

Ethanol proof means only that ethanol won't damage the engine or fuel system, and that's all I meant by it.

Just about any post-1984 or so car can run up to E40 without any detrimental effect other than reduced mpg. Miles per dollar will be the same or better, but only because there is a Big Corn Lobby subsidy of 61 cents per gallon. I think the subsidy should go so that more economical crops can compete fairly.

If we just used E40 in the US, we would not have to import one drop of terrorist or dictator oil.

We simply must return to home-grown ethanol fuel, which is the fuel that the internal combustion engine was developed to use. Henry Ford only added a spark advance lever on the Model T to burn Rockefeller's cutthroat competition gas so he could sell more cars.

Gas is too polluting, and dangerous - race cars abandoned it long ago for methanol after the deadly fire in the 1960's at the Indy 500. The Indy 500 has now wisely switched to E100 - methanol is too toxic.

Most of the anti-ethanol statements on this forum are myths that Big Oil spends hundreds of millions of dollars to perpetuate to protect it's gas monopoly.

Before I actually looked at the facts, I too believed what Big Oil said. And we don't have E100, like Brazil has successfully had for 20+ years because Big Oil has bought the Republicans and the Democrats.

Some of the myths are debunked here (E85 Conversion Kits Change2E85.com).
but you really ought to read the whole story here (Welcome to Alcohol Can Be A Gas! | Permaculture & Alcohol Can Be A Gas).

Know both sides of the story - don't buy Big Oil's propaganda!

 

I recently dropped 4-5 MPG after the Mobil station I use switched to Sunoco. Today I noticed the 10% ethanol sticker....so maybe that's the culprit!

 

yeah mpg usually goes down more in the winter time because of the gas blend and more ethonol put into it......
yeah it sux

 

1) Riiiiiight...

2) A number of race cars still run gasoline, depending upon which sanctioning body's rules they race under. The average street engine is seeing maybe 9.5:1 compression (newer cars can be higher because of computer-controlled ignition timing and variable valve timing). Nascar engines see 12:1 and Indy-type cars running alcohol are around 14:1 before you throw in the turbo. Alcohol is a 'cooler' fuel in that it absorbs more heat as it is atomized at the injector/carbuerator. A cooler charge equals more power as it is denser, meaning more fuel and air enter the cylinder with every stroke. This allows for even higher compression ratios and more power. Look at the Dynomax Power to the Wheels Challenge: The overwhelming majority of challenge winners are running E85 and unreal compression ratios, but 2007 Event winner Danny Tyler's Ford Falcon pushed 1766.52 horsepower to the rear wheels on PUMP GAS.

-cough- On Topic: I noticed on a recent 1200 mile trip that I lost an average of 3 mph when forced to use E10. The price was THE SAME as real gasoline elsewhere.

 

Bingo (assuming you meant mpG). E10 is being sold at the same price as 100% gasoline -- or higher! And miles per gallon drops. That makes it a purely economic decision. Sell E10 or what have you at a price that accurately reflects the relative number of miles people can expect from each, if you must. Or buy Sunoco if you don't want to send money to the Middle East, all their crude is domestic. But please don't try to tell me that I'm not getting crappy gas mileage and still paying the same price, because I am and I am.

 

E=Mc2 said: "2007 Event winner Danny Tyler's Ford Falcon pushed 1766.52 horsepower to the rear wheels on PUMP GAS".

Gas has more energy per unit volume than ethanol. I make no claim to the contrary. In an engine designed for gas, gas will outperform ethanol.

In an engine designed for ethanol, ethanol might outperform gas since E100 has 127 octane vs. 100 or so for the very best gas. Miles per volume will still be less with ethanol, but miles per dollar can easily be better.

But, overall, ethanol has so many environmental and balance of trade advantages over gasoline that there is simply no comparison.

Virtually everything we think we know about E100 ethanol is false. Big Oil spends many hundreds of millions of dollars buying Congress, Presidents, and the media, to propagandize against ethanol.

Corn ethanol is a waste of land and corn. Ethanol form other plants - sugar beets, fodder beets, cattails - makes very good sense.

Check the other side of the story at Welcome to Alcohol Can Be A Gas! | Permaculture & Alcohol Can Be A Gas.

I want an E0 (gas) to E100 ethanol Flex Fuel Honda Fit, but Big Oil has gotten Congress to prohibit them here.