Anyone know what the hell these are?
#21
08-18-2008, 12:08 PM
so, saiko, hope you learned something today.
i dont mod cars for just the hell of it. takes a lot of learning and
experimenting.
#22
08-18-2008, 02:18 PM
as mentioned on my post above, it can help aid in the alignment
of the wheels, but these wheels are not hubcentric by design.
they are lugcentric but use the hubcentric rings/design to aid
alignment.
if you look at a true hubcentric wheel you will notice that it
does not use rings (sits on hub without needing those adapter
rings) and use flat non-tapered lugs. those require tighter tolerance
to manufacture and it is not as cost effective as lugcentric wheels.
thus, you see more lugcentric wheels from the factory these days.
again as posted above, if you put high g on the wheels the rings
could potentially help in supporting the wheels on the hub, but as
posted above, those plastic rings aren't strong and can melt from
heat(brakes) or crack when you try removing them.
your car is put together by similar fasteners (nuts and bolts).
your studs are not that weak unless you abuse them by over
torquing while putting the wheels on, or they fracture due to
defect.
your plastic hub centric rings are not going to support the weight
of the car. your plastic rings are not made to the tight tolerance
of a true hubcentric wheel.
your vibrations are coming from mis-alignment of the lugs, how you
improperly torqued down the lugs, or unbalanced wheels/tires, or
your wheels/tires are not true (round). your plastic rings are not
your real solution. they only aid the solution.
of the wheels, but these wheels are not hubcentric by design.
they are lugcentric but use the hubcentric rings/design to aid
alignment.
if you look at a true hubcentric wheel you will notice that it
does not use rings (sits on hub without needing those adapter
rings) and use flat non-tapered lugs. those require tighter tolerance
to manufacture and it is not as cost effective as lugcentric wheels.
thus, you see more lugcentric wheels from the factory these days.
again as posted above, if you put high g on the wheels the rings
could potentially help in supporting the wheels on the hub, but as
posted above, those plastic rings aren't strong and can melt from
heat(brakes) or crack when you try removing them.
your car is put together by similar fasteners (nuts and bolts).
your studs are not that weak unless you abuse them by over
torquing while putting the wheels on, or they fracture due to
defect.
your plastic hub centric rings are not going to support the weight
of the car. your plastic rings are not made to the tight tolerance
of a true hubcentric wheel.
your vibrations are coming from mis-alignment of the lugs, how you
improperly torqued down the lugs, or unbalanced wheels/tires, or
your wheels/tires are not true (round). your plastic rings are not
your real solution. they only aid the solution.
Now as far as strength goes, plastic rings are all you need as it is only absorbing compression forces, not shear. Without them you have a gap which will allow any deflection in the wheel accross bolts to create a slight harmonic unbalance which basically will end up causing major vibrations and put additional stress on the studs as the wheel vibrates. The studs are not designed for those kind of tension forces, they are primarily designed to resist shear foces only. As the wheel rotates from side to side (vibration) it will use the hub as the fulcrum point and literally pop the studs apart under those kinds of tension forces. The max yield strength of those studs will only last so long as the steel begins to deform and weaken.
The wheel requires to be rigid in order to give the proper loading through the studs. You can achieve that by torquing the bolts down to an exact spec, or just using the plastic ring. However if either don't have it torqued perfectly and have any kind of imbalance in the tire you will end up with a vibration. Also in cornering you are going to be exerting hoizontal forces which will have the same kind of effect as described above and a hubcentric ring would simply ellimiante that problem by countering the force at the end of the lever through compression.
Think of it as a teeter toter; instead of having somebody at one end trying to resist the load on the other, you have two plastic blocks at the very ends which hold it perfectly in balance with no movement... the only load will be absorbed by compression. It is just a much more stable option.
Aside from theory it has already been proven with the Fit that without hubcentric rings you risk vibration. Nothing to do with alignment.
Last edited by Sugarphreak; 08-18-2008 at 02:21 PM.
#24
08-18-2008, 02:52 PM
Anyway, I tried to do up some quick sketches to illustrate the point I want to make. They are pretty quick so no grief please 
#25
08-18-2008, 03:04 PM
okay thanks for the illustration
i'm still in the learning process of everything, and that REALLY helped
+rep
i'm still in the learning process of everything, and that REALLY helped
+rep
#26
08-18-2008, 03:13 PM
obviously the sketch is exagerated to show the forces, in reality it is maybe a millimeter. However the forces involved could be in the thousands of pounds per inch.
Consider this; if you corner hard it puts maybe a few hundred pounds of lateral forces through the wheel which acts as a giant lever across the hub and then as tension on the stud. We all know that levers amplify the forces over distances, well that couple of hundred pounds has now just turned into well over a few thousand.
Steel has a much weaker tensile strength than compression or shear, so you end up with a stud that being worked like crazy. Like a paper clip it will weaken and then break with those kinds of forces being exerted on it constantly.
The hubcentric ring will basically absorb most of that force and make the tension force probably less than 15% of what it would be without. You could stack probably 10,000lbs on top of those rings and they wouldn't be crushed, they have a huge compression capacity. Steel rings could even be better, but it would provide no dampening affect if there is any minor movement.
Consider this; if you corner hard it puts maybe a few hundred pounds of lateral forces through the wheel which acts as a giant lever across the hub and then as tension on the stud. We all know that levers amplify the forces over distances, well that couple of hundred pounds has now just turned into well over a few thousand.
Steel has a much weaker tensile strength than compression or shear, so you end up with a stud that being worked like crazy. Like a paper clip it will weaken and then break with those kinds of forces being exerted on it constantly.
The hubcentric ring will basically absorb most of that force and make the tension force probably less than 15% of what it would be without. You could stack probably 10,000lbs on top of those rings and they wouldn't be crushed, they have a huge compression capacity. Steel rings could even be better, but it would provide no dampening affect if there is any minor movement.
Last edited by Sugarphreak; 08-18-2008 at 03:18 PM.
#27
08-18-2008, 03:24 PM
yeah i figured that it was a little exagerated, but i got the point.
the black rectangles are the little rings?
so they just go around the hub before you place the rim on?
the black rectangles are the little rings?
so they just go around the hub before you place the rim on?
#28
08-18-2008, 03:36 PM
yeah the rectangle things are what you would see if you cut the ring in half and just looked at the ends. Is basically a cut-away sketch.
It is pretty easy to put them on, you just line them up around the outside of the hub and them tap them on with a rubber mallet until they are flush with the face all around.
Taking them off sucks, I usually end up using a pair of pliers and just pulling straight out. I would reccomend putting a tiny bit of grease on them before you install because after a summer of driving around on rims they tend to stick pretty good.
It is pretty easy to put them on, you just line them up around the outside of the hub and them tap them on with a rubber mallet until they are flush with the face all around.
Taking them off sucks, I usually end up using a pair of pliers and just pulling straight out. I would reccomend putting a tiny bit of grease on them before you install because after a summer of driving around on rims they tend to stick pretty good.
Last edited by Sugarphreak; 08-18-2008 at 03:39 PM.
#30
08-18-2008, 03:53 PM
normal driving the rings are ok, the do break or get broken when you need to remove rotors/drums for service, mainly because of rust build up or dissimilar metals corrosion if using alloy rings. the plastic ones do melt under racing conditions, even at auto crosses, but 99% of people should be ok. the race cars i have driven/built (imsa gtu cars) did not use rings of any sort and we rarely balanced wheels to within an ounce because once you pick up chunks of rubber on the track the balance goes out the window anyway. but i can see the logic in the stick drawing for the street because of all the road hazards you do not face on a race track.
#31
08-18-2008, 04:15 PM
tires flex to absorb much of that higher g energy and even release it
by breaking away from the tarmac before measureable shift between
the hub and the back of your wheel.
your weakest link is your tires as it should be, not between the hub
and the back of the wheel.
by breaking away from the tarmac before measureable shift between
the hub and the back of your wheel.
your weakest link is your tires as it should be, not between the hub
and the back of the wheel.
#32
08-18-2008, 04:32 PM
Those are hubcentric rings... you need them!
If the inside diameter of your new wheels are larger they will provide a ring to make up the space between the wheel and the hub. You just slip them onto your hub before you put the new wheel on.
If you don't install them the wheels will still go on and bolt up. But at high speeds you will get a nasty vibration.
If the inside diameter of your new wheels are larger they will provide a ring to make up the space between the wheel and the hub. You just slip them onto your hub before you put the new wheel on.
If you don't install them the wheels will still go on and bolt up. But at high speeds you will get a nasty vibration.
Hubcentric rings are a means to install the wheels easier if the wheels hub bore is larger than your hub center. All you need do is rotate the wheel to align the lugbolts vs having to pick the wheel/tire up and rotate.
You better not get vibration when the wheels are installed without the hubcentric rings, That would mean you didn't tighten a wheel nut(s) or you have a lose lugbolt. When wheels are tightened to the lugbolts at correct torque the wheels will center around the wheel bolts regardless of the centering rings. That torquing force is hundreds of times greater than the force hubcentric rings can resist. And the wheel aligns with the lubbolt centers, not the hubcentric ring. It had better or your wheels are bad news.
#33
08-18-2008, 04:49 PM
You guys have got to be kidding me...
First off, tire grip is what exerts the force on the wheel. If you had no grip (as suggested above) you would fly off the end of a corner.
Mahout, you are refering to a fixed ridged system. Which I agree works in theory if you have zero movement, however you are not dealing with static loading which basically means that if you get a harmonic it is going to shake the crap out of your rim and put a lot of unessisary tension force on the studs which could be elliminated by simply running a hubcentric ring. Plus when cornering you are relying only on the tensile strength of the bolts... there is a reason that Honda makes stock rims hubcentric (no gap between the hub).
As far as "melting" goes, my rings are fine and I have run a couple of autocross events this year on a tarmac you could fry an egg on. I have also driving at high speeds for hours and hours on end. They show zero signs of melting.
The final word...
Whatever; for the rest of our readers at home you can do what you want. I really could care less, the theory is stated and there have been people who own Fits who get a harmonic vibration as a result of not running these rings.
Do what you want
This is my final post on this topic... It's not like I am an expert in structural design or anything.
First off, tire grip is what exerts the force on the wheel. If you had no grip (as suggested above) you would fly off the end of a corner.
Mahout, you are refering to a fixed ridged system. Which I agree works in theory if you have zero movement, however you are not dealing with static loading which basically means that if you get a harmonic it is going to shake the crap out of your rim and put a lot of unessisary tension force on the studs which could be elliminated by simply running a hubcentric ring. Plus when cornering you are relying only on the tensile strength of the bolts... there is a reason that Honda makes stock rims hubcentric (no gap between the hub).
As far as "melting" goes, my rings are fine and I have run a couple of autocross events this year on a tarmac you could fry an egg on. I have also driving at high speeds for hours and hours on end. They show zero signs of melting.
The final word...
Whatever; for the rest of our readers at home you can do what you want. I really could care less, the theory is stated and there have been people who own Fits who get a harmonic vibration as a result of not running these rings.
Do what you want
This is my final post on this topic... It's not like I am an expert in structural design or anything.
Last edited by Sugarphreak; 08-18-2008 at 04:51 PM.
#34
08-18-2008, 05:00 PM
those are hubcentric rings. you do NOT need them. if you install your wheels/lugs correctly, you wont need them
#35
08-18-2008, 05:08 PM
You guys have got to be kidding me...
First off, tire grip is what exerts the force on the wheel. If you had no grip (as suggested above) you would fly off the end of a corner.
Mahout, you are refering to a fixed ridged system. Which I agree works in theory if you have zero movement, however you are not dealing with static loading which basically means that if you get a harmonic it is going to shake the crap out of your rim and put a lot of unessisary tension force on the studs which could be elliminated by simply running a hubcentric ring. Plus when cornering you are relying only on the tensile strength of the bolts... there is a reason that Honda makes stock rims hubcentric (no gap between the hub).
As far as "melting" goes, my rings are fine and I have run a couple of autocross events this year on a tarmac you could fry an egg on. I have also driving at high speeds for hours and hours on end. They show zero signs of melting.
The final word...
Whatever; for the rest of our readers at home you can do what you want. I really could care less, the theory is stated and there have been people who own Fits who get a harmonic vibration as a result of not running these rings.
Do what you want This is my final post on this topic.
First off, tire grip is what exerts the force on the wheel. If you had no grip (as suggested above) you would fly off the end of a corner.
Mahout, you are refering to a fixed ridged system. Which I agree works in theory if you have zero movement, however you are not dealing with static loading which basically means that if you get a harmonic it is going to shake the crap out of your rim and put a lot of unessisary tension force on the studs which could be elliminated by simply running a hubcentric ring. Plus when cornering you are relying only on the tensile strength of the bolts... there is a reason that Honda makes stock rims hubcentric (no gap between the hub).
As far as "melting" goes, my rings are fine and I have run a couple of autocross events this year on a tarmac you could fry an egg on. I have also driving at high speeds for hours and hours on end. They show zero signs of melting.
The final word...
Whatever; for the rest of our readers at home you can do what you want. I really could care less, the theory is stated and there have been people who own Fits who get a harmonic vibration as a result of not running these rings.
Do what you want
This is my final post on this topic."First off, tire grip is what exerts the force on the wheel. If you had no grip (as suggested above) you would fly off the end of a corner."
now you're changing the entire point of your figure you made for us, no?
you wanted to show the twisting action from lateral g, the vibrations,
between the hub and the back of the wheel... well, there should be
no movement because the tires will flex and break loose before that
happens given that the lugs are torqued correctly.
yes, honda made the wheels hubcentric to make them easier to
install to keep labor/maintenance cost and greif down. if they
were true hubcentric wheels the lugs would not have a taper.
also the hubs would need to be made of material that won't rust
(stainless = higher cost). otherwise the wheels would get stuck
on the hub from rusting. you'll have to do a lot of figure-8's with
loose lugs to remove the wheels off the hub in snowbelt areas.
your final word is imo irresponsible.
you bring in a weak argument that you can't really prove and now you don't care.
that's not the way it should be done.
i recommend to all you readers to who are intereted this thread
to read about hubcentric and lugcentric wheels, how they
differ in construction (materials included) and design, and what
the pro's/con's are.
#36
08-18-2008, 05:19 PM
[quote=WiggumS2K;399112]Contrary to beliefs, NO AUTOMOBILE MANUFACTURER ON EARTH builds wheels "DESIGNED" to be lug centric, IT DOESN'T WORK!
And I have news for you: Every manufacturer builds wheels to be lug centric. I specifieded a few and was cognizent of hundreds of others.
The specifications on wheel lug bolt nests is only +/_ .002"and no centering ring is better than .020".
The wheels WILL nest where the force is applied which is the lug nuts in the wheel lug nests. They must nest properly in the wheels so they are 'round' at the circumference of the wheel otherwise you WILL have a bumpy ride.
Lug nuts WILL always overpower centering rings because the lug nuts tighten with a force that WILL deform any centering ring.
In order to have hub centric rings overpower the lug locations they would have to be made of hardened steel. (You may note they are all soft aluminum or plastic, easy to deform as needed. .)
And when that happened the wheel will be cocked on the hub.
Hubcentric rings are only an aid to installation when the wheel hub bore is greater than the wheel hib ring.
And I have news for you: Every manufacturer builds wheels to be lug centric. I specifieded a few and was cognizent of hundreds of others.
The specifications on wheel lug bolt nests is only +/_ .002"and no centering ring is better than .020".
The wheels WILL nest where the force is applied which is the lug nuts in the wheel lug nests. They must nest properly in the wheels so they are 'round' at the circumference of the wheel otherwise you WILL have a bumpy ride.
Lug nuts WILL always overpower centering rings because the lug nuts tighten with a force that WILL deform any centering ring.
In order to have hub centric rings overpower the lug locations they would have to be made of hardened steel. (You may note they are all soft aluminum or plastic, easy to deform as needed. .)
And when that happened the wheel will be cocked on the hub.
Hubcentric rings are only an aid to installation when the wheel hub bore is greater than the wheel hib ring.
#37
08-18-2008, 05:46 PM
[quote=mahout;399533]
The amount of ignorance in this thread is mind boggling..
At any rate, name me ONE automobile manufacturer that produces a car that the OEM wheel is not hubcentric. Rings are there so wheel manufacturers can be lazy, but forget them. Name ONE OEM WHEEL THAT IS NOT HUB CENTRIC.
Contrary to beliefs, NO AUTOMOBILE MANUFACTURER ON EARTH builds wheels "DESIGNED" to be lug centric, IT DOESN'T WORK!
And I have news for you: Every manufacturer builds wheels to be lug centric. I specifieded a few and was cognizent of hundreds of others.
The specifications on wheel lug bolt nests is only +/_ .002"and no centering ring is better than .020".
The wheels WILL nest where the force is applied which is the lug nuts in the wheel lug nests. They must nest properly in the wheels so they are 'round' at the circumference of the wheel otherwise you WILL have a bumpy ride.
Lug nuts WILL always overpower centering rings because the lug nuts tighten with a force that WILL deform any centering ring.
In order to have hub centric rings overpower the lug locations they would have to be made of hardened steel. (You may note they are all soft aluminum or plastic, easy to deform as needed. .)
And when that happened the wheel will be cocked on the hub.
Hubcentric rings are only an aid to installation when the wheel hub bore is greater than the wheel hib ring.
And I have news for you: Every manufacturer builds wheels to be lug centric. I specifieded a few and was cognizent of hundreds of others.
The specifications on wheel lug bolt nests is only +/_ .002"and no centering ring is better than .020".
The wheels WILL nest where the force is applied which is the lug nuts in the wheel lug nests. They must nest properly in the wheels so they are 'round' at the circumference of the wheel otherwise you WILL have a bumpy ride.
Lug nuts WILL always overpower centering rings because the lug nuts tighten with a force that WILL deform any centering ring.
In order to have hub centric rings overpower the lug locations they would have to be made of hardened steel. (You may note they are all soft aluminum or plastic, easy to deform as needed. .)
And when that happened the wheel will be cocked on the hub.
Hubcentric rings are only an aid to installation when the wheel hub bore is greater than the wheel hib ring.
The amount of ignorance in this thread is mind boggling..
At any rate, name me ONE automobile manufacturer that produces a car that the OEM wheel is not hubcentric. Rings are there so wheel manufacturers can be lazy, but forget them. Name ONE OEM WHEEL THAT IS NOT HUB CENTRIC.
#39
08-18-2008, 07:05 PM
its harder to find a true hubcentric wheel these days other than
on toyota's. your fit sport wheels are not a true hubcentric wheel.
they are kind of a mix of lugcentric design with hubcentric convenience.
therefore, i call these 'lugcentric by design' as it centers the wheel
by the lug taper (lugcentric), not the center hub/bore fitment.
that's one reason why you can run wheels without centering rings
because it is the lugs that are ultimately aligning and holding the
wheels to the hub, and not the plastic (or metal) rings other than
for aiding alignment.
on toyota's. your fit sport wheels are not a true hubcentric wheel.
they are kind of a mix of lugcentric design with hubcentric convenience.
therefore, i call these 'lugcentric by design' as it centers the wheel
by the lug taper (lugcentric), not the center hub/bore fitment.
that's one reason why you can run wheels without centering rings
because it is the lugs that are ultimately aligning and holding the
wheels to the hub, and not the plastic (or metal) rings other than
for aiding alignment.
#40
08-18-2008, 07:09 PM
Your drawings are inaccurate. The cocked wheel is more apt to occur when hub rings are so hard they do not let the wheel nest in the lug cones, which are concentric to the hub post or axle centerline. And must be. The hub cover is merely an add on and does not have to be so precise.