don't worry man, no offense taken.


you really should check out the jackson/kraftwerks supercharger thread. The new rotrex chargers they are using seem very promising.

i don't really know what qualifies to NOT be classified as a part that makes 'shit for power' on a honda, but a look at the dyno sheets reveals that a 5lb kit (that just so happens to be CARB legal) increases WHP from a measley 90hp to about 155. Thats 65 more hp to the wheels. That to me is pretty impressive. The gains for the automatic will be a little less, maybe in the 135-150 hp range, but autos also only make about 80 to the wheels.

 

If they are claiming that kind of power gains, and they are true, then I am very impressed. Previous JRSC never impressed me because a gsr would never break 200whp with them. If they have redesigned them and they truly are showing gains of 50whp or more that's 10 hp per pound of boost and is the same typical gains of most turbo setups. I'm off to go read this thread and see what its all about.

 

sounds good man. yeah, the chargers themselves are new type, hence why the gains look and are different than the older ones they used for gsr's and such.

 

The new setups look much better than the old ones, so thanks for the heads up. 160ish whp, if the really make that much power, will be alot of fun. I'm still planning on going kswap, but for those who are looking to do alot less work, it's a nice option with good results. I'd like to see some actual dyno numbers from some people who have it, if it's out already.

 

the 5lb kit for the manual is about to come out, with the a/t version coming out shortly. then the 10lb kit is supossed to come out, with no version of it for us A/T guys. (understandable.)

that dyno that they posted towards the end of the thread was with an older 5lb kit, the newer one, like you said, makes about 160 to the wheels. I would assume that the dyno for a 5lb auto tranny would look like the one posted.

The 10lb kit is supossed to make close to 200whp!

 

Everything covered so far in this post has been all well and good BUT no one has addressed the BOGEYMAN ...... When you install a different engine into the FIT/JAZZ and you modify a major structural component (the Frame rail and or the engine mounts) that is part of the crash safety equipment you invalidate the road worthy certificate for that particular vehicle.... UNLESS you supply the NTSB (national transportation safety board) with engineering drawings and specifications and YOU HAVE CRASH TESTED AT LEAST FIVE VEHICLES WITH YOUR MODIFICATIONS.

If you do not re-certify the crash worthiness of the vehicle with the modifications it will not be issued a crash worthy certification.

Simply put if you so much as make one hacksaw cut one inch long in the frame rail you are SCREWED as to the vehicle being legal for the road.

Is it done... yes for sure but modifications of a main structural component is a RATHER LARGE MONKEY ON YOUR BACK JUST WAITING TO BITE YOU ON THE A**.

Think like a grown up for a minute.... do you think Honda and other vehicle manufacturers crash all those cars (and waste all that money) just because they like to watch crash dummy tapes on You tube???? Nope they do it because they ARE MANDATED BY LAW TO PERFORM THOSE TESTS and when whoever modifies the vehicle it renders those crash test results null and void for that vehicle because nobody knows for sure how the vehicle is going to perform in crash tests with the modifications.

Got your attention yet?? Picture this your cruising down the road with bubba in the passenger seat showing off your new Fit with a k-20 swap that involved you cutting and modifying the main frame rails and the engine mounts to make it FIT.

Whamo a car pulls out from a side road and you bash it in the side. Is the other car at fault..... most probably BUT in the crash the engine breaks loose when the motor mounts fail and the modified frame rail doesn't bend as designed and the floor buckles and bubba is whacked in the shins buy the floorboards and bashes his noggin so hard on his knee that he has a divot in his forehead. Bubba is in the hospital with tubes running in and out of his body and is not doing well and you think WHEW good thing I have insurance and the other guy is at fault my A** is SAFE......... Think again

The first thing YOUR insurance adjuster is going to look for is reasons to void your insurance policy. And the first thing he is going to see it a LARGE engine in the engine bay of your car and he's going to say HUUMMM I have never seen an engine that large in a FIT but let me check and he dials up the head office and asks the office pouge what kind of engine and what is the engine number listed for policy holders XXXX (you) vehicle. He waits awhile and whamo your NIGHTMARE BEGINS when the office tells him well the engine should be a L-15a and the engine number is 11XXXXX 8796 and guess what the engine in your car doesn't' match the one listed on your policy. And the adjuster yells eureka we don't have to pay. All because you never bothered to notify your insurance company that you changed the engine in your car... and then the adjuster looks farther into the engine bay and spots the KISS OF DEATH a modified frame rail and he doesn't have to look any further "I'm out of here my job is DONE" no pay out for this policy holder. Now you should begin to really sweat your future.

You see unlike criminal laws CIVIL LAWS (car crashes included) can apportion blame and damages (like 60/40 ) for the guys that caused the accident and you for contributing to the injuries of Bubba BECAUSE YOU MODIFIED THE VEHICLE. OOOOOPPPPSSSSS

Now we have more bad news when you try to sell or buy the k-20 FIT. Is it still a Fit??? In SOME STATES it's no longer a FIT because the engine is not a direct bolt in replacement and the same old bogeyman of frame modifications rears it's ugly head and now you are forced to register it as a component vehicle with all the tests that entails.

And if you end up being sued going bankrupt doesn't help as civil judgments are exempt from bankruptcy rulings. A quick story myself and a good friend were at the old (now closed) Dover Drag Strip near wingdales NY way back in 1966. He had a nice Chevy 1962 with a fresh 327 but no scatter shield. Bad news is the clutch blew up on the line and a large chunk of pressure plate ended up in a spectators arm. O NO big trouble. After many years of court cases the spectator was awarded $100,000 a huge sum back in those days and my friend was forced to pay out of his own pocket. He kept paying and paying I next saw him in 1987 20 years later and guess what he was STILL PAYING the lawyers had attached his pay and had been taking money directly out of his paycheck for over 20 years.. don't think it can't happen to you.

So the bottom line is any kit you buy that forces you to modify the frame to install is going to have a statement somewhere saying FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY (unless their lawyer went to Sears and Roebuck law school). If you are dead set on making the swap get SOMEONE ELSE to make the modifications. And tell them you are making a documentary and RECORD YOU TELLING THEM THE CAR WILL BE USED ON THE ROAD, and MORE FOOTAGE of THEM doing the swap and then SHOWING YOU DRIVING AWAY WITH THE OWNER WAVING AT YOU ON THE ROAD. And read the fine print on the receipt for the swap and make sure there is no FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY on your receipt.

BOTTOM LINE: go for the turbo or SC kit that can be installed on THE ORIGINAL ENGINE without modifying any structural components

 

Thank you, you've totally changed my mind.

 

Nice looking out claymore... but I think it's a LITTLE extreme. Yes, what you suggest is *possible*, if pretty unrealistic. Think about this... EVERY SINGLE USDM EF Civic or CRX with anything but a D series in it has had at the very least a trimmed (read: cut) front crossmember, and clearancing on at least one other point (usually the shock tower). I have NEVER seen any insurance issues come up from that other than owners not getting their money back when the cars are totalled. People have been engine swapping imports, especially Hondas, for a long time, and that's never been an issue.

And you don't think there's any similar issue with a turbo/SC setup? Like someone who is looking for excuses not to pay won't pop the hood after seeing a big intercooler in the bumper, and say "he MUST have been speeding!" As far as I know, my insurance never asks if I have a motor swap, but it DOES ask if my car is fitted with a turbocharger (or a snow plow).

I just think that what you are suggesting is pretty unrealistic and silly, though I agree that the FI mods are better at the moment.

 

160ish is what i am making, however I have boltons. A bonestock fit with the base kit should be about 140whp and CARB LEGAL. Kit is due to release soon.

 

Then why do you think the kits all come with a disclaimer that labels them as NOT FOR ROAD USE FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY. Their lawyers are smart enough to address all the issues I have just outlined, that you seem to know nothing about because your not a lawyer or law enforcement agent, because they haven't been crash tested because it's TOO expensive.

 

Whatever man... if it's such a big problem then how come only YOU know anything about it?

Obviously I am retarded or something, because I don't know what I'm talking about, I'll just go back to building fast cars for a living.

 

in the words of xorbe, chill pill man.

obviously moddifying a car is not for you, or at least not swapping an engine.

there is no need to freak out like you just did, and its unfair to plauge the fit freak community with your ideas on swaps and what not. go tell this to every person who has ever swapped a k series into a civic crx or whatever. the fit guys are not the only ones to have this un holy idea and its been going on in the honda community for awhile.

Sure i appreciate carb certification, but modifying is modifying and its not for everyone. and its obviously not for you.

 

everyone is entitled to their own opinion. some of what Claymore said is true.... however most who would be interested in the swap dont care about this anyway.

 

True, All the swaps that I've performed for others or with concerns for my own cars, have never been even a consideration the "for off road use" only warning!

Not many performance enthusiasts are worried about that, and risks are taken in the efforts to move fast. Many aftermarket products are "for off road use only". That Will not deter many performance minded people.

Pertaining to Racing, drag racing or road racing, Keep it legal and Keep it on the Tracks! Just my 2 cents!

I agree that most people with factory Warranties will not be performing this unless they are a mechanic or have much mechanical know how. It makes any issues along the way, and future warantee-less period not a concern to them!

As I've said, with the Honda market, the Fit will BE THE next Honda Hatch! After a few years, it will have much aftermarket support for suspension and brakes, and performance parts. And it will all be affordable.
In 5 years or so this will become common place. You'll see! For Now I'm having a Blast! **Kseries For the Win!!!**

 

I understand what you are saying, but #1 most state troopers I have met have NO knowledge of cars PERIOD(Not saying that you don't, and no disrespect to you at all ). #2 It's a VERY small notch in the frame rail and if someone believes that it is going to affect the car in an accident, they can easily reinforce it.

Another thing, I've had one car that was totalled with no bumper support where someone hit me. I think that would have a more negative effect in an accident than a small notch in a frame rail. Yet I received every bit of what the car was worth.

I'm not saying it's not possible, because there are insurance companies, and people in general. that will do everything to get out of anything. But at the same time, people should know these risks when getting into something like this. For those who don't, you just introduced some new information to them. I hope I haven't come across like an ass, just presenting the other side.

 

What a bunch of kids reacting to bad news with the typical bury my head in the sand saying "I'm not listening... I'm not listening" and maybe the problem will go away. And the "WELL EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING IT SO IT MUST BE OK" defense.

I got news for you kiddies just because every civic and or fit and or every other car swapped engines did it THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT LEGAL NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU CLOSE YOUR EYES AND WISH IT WAS NOT TRUE. Law and regulations are passed and whether or not anyone chooses to obey them is up to them.

Take littering and marijuana smoking, both illegal in most place but people still do them both and hardly anyone gets arrested for violating these laws, same with engine swapping. All you internet mechanics may know how to change an engine but have NO CLUE AS TO WHAT IS LEGAL AND WHAT ISN'T. And all the whining and sniveling you guys do that is not going to change.

I never said law enforcement officers would be jumping out of the bushes writing you up for a modified frame rail BUT THEY COULD face it no matter how disappointed you are it's a fact of life. Sure more than a few law enforcement officers could give a crap what you do to your car and only hand out speeding or stop sign tickets BUT IT ONLY TAKES ONCE running into one that has been trained and quick as a flash your beloved k-20 swap Fit will be hooked up to the wrecker to tow it home because it has been deadlined for not being roadworthy.

So jump up and down and throw a FIT and cry that everybody is doing it so it must be OK but facts are facts and no matter how many times you try to convince yourselves it can't be true and writing all these posts showing the world how little you know about laws pertaining to engine swaps and modifying structural components facts are facts.

Try learning something instead of ranting about laws that are already on the books and take a run down to your local motor vehicle office or registry whatever you call it in your state and most of the time they will have the rules for modifying vehicles and or composite vehicles all written down in nice little pamphlets all ready for you to REALLY KNOW as compared to what you want them to be what is legal and what isn't.

So that's the bottom line stop acting like kiddies with your hands over your ears crying "I'm not listeniing.... I'm not listening" hoping this will go away because everybody I know has done it and never had a problem yet THAT IS THE OPERATIVE WORD YET.

Try this all you doubters email, telephone, or telegraph HASPORT or any other kit maker of Kits to swap a K-20 into a FIT and ASK THEM IF THEIR KITS ARE LEGAL FOR ROAD USE and if they have been crash tested go ahead I double dog dare you to do it. (I don't have to because I already know the answer).

And we have mostly been talking about federal titles here but THE BAD NEWS IS MOST OF THESE ARE ALSO STATE LAWS.

No where did I say I don't want to modify vehicles and or get more performance if you had bothered to actually read and comprehend my post read the last line and you will see where I recommended using either a turbo or Supercharger so quit trying to disparage the messenger, stop crying in your milk and accept facts for a change not just what you WISH WAS TRUE.

So the bottom line is that modifying a major structural and or safety component is illegal now that you have that information what you do with it is up to you just like any other law on the books. But IGNORE THIS ADVICE AT YOUR OWN PERIL.

I didn't MAKE these laws I just passed them on for your information if you choose to ignore them that is up to you. There is no need to write your pissy rants at me for pointing out the facts if you don't like the laws whine to your congressman and work to get them changed (good luck).

 

so with people that have engine swap in their cars...and decide to make it legal then...why do people get their cars BARd...to make them legal?

i never never knew that people had to crash 5 cars just to make their car legal. im not saying all what you said is not true. im just confused.

 

Not people need to crash test their cars the MANUFACTURERS OF THE KITS need to do crash testing to sell parts NOT MARKED FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY and legal to use on roadways.

And like I said in SOME STATES you CAN get your car road worthy by reporting the engine change to motor vehicle so the title and registration will reflect the new engine number... that makes the new engine legal in THAT CAR IF the new engine meets all the requirements of year of manufacturer and emissions standards.

Then you have to report the changes to the major structural components like the motor mounts and frame rail. In SOME states (too many to list the proper procedure in every state) the inspectors at motor vehicle will require the specifications of the changes you made and if any welding and reinforcing has been done that work has to pass inspections about the QUALITY OF THE WELDING AND IF THE PROPER METAL HAS BEEN USED. In some cases the welding will have to be certified, x-rayed, and Manufluxed to see if a good job has been done.

Now in some cases that will make the car legal in that state BUT whoever made the changes will still be civilly liable in the event of a crash and the other parties lawyer learns about the modifications. I can see it now.. lawyer sir are you an engineer? Automotive engineer?? Structural engineer?? Bubba NOPE. Lawyer have you had any training at all in certified welding??? Bubba nope but I watched my daddy real close when he did some welding. Lawyer have you ever designed any automotive parts using CAD drawings ?? Nope but they looked good in crayola..... you get the point if who ever does the frame cutting isn't an engineer and a certified welder you are going to be up the creek without a paddle in terms of CIVIL LIABILITY and it continues UNTIL THAT CAR IS CRUSHED.

Sell a car that has been modified without getting a SOLD AS IS NOT FOR USE ON HIGHWAYS clause in the contract and two weeks down the road and there is a serious crash you are going to find yourself in court as part of the lawsuit.

In some cases it doesn't pay to be afraid of the guys at motor vehicle. There are good guys that are hot rodders and they sometimes end up in the section that inspects hot rods and engine changes. SOME of them are good guys and will help you through a project and let you know what you have to do to make the changes legal so give it a try and it can be done in the state to make the car legal NOT to say it's still a violation of federal road use regulations but the state guys could care less.

 

Clay,


I'm not doubting what you are saying is true. Not in the least, in fact, i agree with it.


But here is the problem i have with what you have been saying.



1.The fit drivers here who have been posting their interest in a k swap have little concern for legalities. In fact, i can't even remember reading ANY posts that said anything along the lines of 'Man, stupid laws, I think swapping a k series should be LEGAL!! YEAH!!!'

Did you read any posts along those lines? if so, my response to that poster would be the same: wanting to do this, or any mod for that matter, isn't exactly the best thing if you want your car to be be 100% safe or legal. Thats just the way it is, why is that difficult to understand?

2. calling me a kiddie or anyone else who you deem younger and stupider than you is ridiculous and unneccesary, and why you would be bothered with such a useless thread given your apparent superior intellect and opinion on the subject is beyond me.


modifying a car is not for you. if you can't grasp the basic concept of whats going on here, then see your way out of this thread.

 

Since you are so well versed in these specific laws (federal, and state as you said), could you please let us ignorant ones know which specific laws you're referring to? I've been through the inspection laws for my home state (New Hampshire) many times, as I worked in an inspection shop before moving to Florida (where, incidentally, there are no car inspections), and never once do I remember seeing motor swaps being a problem.

I very much agree, it's hard to argue with ignorance... just because people are younger than you and you've "investigated more fatal crashes than I've had girlfriends and cars combined" doesn't mean you know what you are talking about more than the next person here.