xW-20 Oil in Very Hot Climates
#1
01-30-2012 | 05:35 PM
Thread Starter
|
Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 31
From: Gorham, ME
xW-20 Oil in Very Hot Climates
We live in a suburb of Phoenix, AZ where winter temperatures very rarely drop below freezing but last summer we experienced 33 days above 43C/110F including 11 days above 46C/115F!
Our 2008 Fit Sport Automatic is my wife's car; she mainly uses it to commute to work ... 22m each way in light to moderate traffic at 60-65mph.
We've been using Mobil 1 0W-30 AFE, a Mobil 1 EP oil filter, and change both every 10,000 miles. At the next oil change (40,000 miles) due in the next few weeks I'm seriously considering a switch to Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE and welcome member input on that and other xW-20 oils.
Has anyone had a bad experience with their Fit using xW-20 ... in any brand ... in similar climatic conditions?
Thanks.
Our 2008 Fit Sport Automatic is my wife's car; she mainly uses it to commute to work ... 22m each way in light to moderate traffic at 60-65mph.
We've been using Mobil 1 0W-30 AFE, a Mobil 1 EP oil filter, and change both every 10,000 miles. At the next oil change (40,000 miles) due in the next few weeks I'm seriously considering a switch to Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE and welcome member input on that and other xW-20 oils.
Has anyone had a bad experience with their Fit using xW-20 ... in any brand ... in similar climatic conditions?
Thanks.
#4
01-30-2012 | 10:39 PM
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
We live in a suburb of Phoenix, AZ where winter temperatures very rarely drop below freezing but last summer we experienced 33 days above 43C/110F including 11 days above 46C/115F!
Our 2008 Fit Sport Automatic is my wife's car; she mainly uses it to commute to work ... 22m each way in light to moderate traffic at 60-65mph.
We've been using Mobil 1 0W-30 AFE, a Mobil 1 EP oil filter, and change both every 10,000 miles. At the next oil change (40,000 miles) due in the next few weeks I'm seriously considering a switch to Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE and welcome member input on that and other xW-20 oils.
Has anyone had a bad experience with their Fit using xW-20 ... in any brand ... in similar climatic conditions?
Thanks.
Our 2008 Fit Sport Automatic is my wife's car; she mainly uses it to commute to work ... 22m each way in light to moderate traffic at 60-65mph.
We've been using Mobil 1 0W-30 AFE, a Mobil 1 EP oil filter, and change both every 10,000 miles. At the next oil change (40,000 miles) due in the next few weeks I'm seriously considering a switch to Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE and welcome member input on that and other xW-20 oils.
Has anyone had a bad experience with their Fit using xW-20 ... in any brand ... in similar climatic conditions?
Thanks.
M1 0w20 will probably raise the oil consumption and 0w30 is just a heavy 5w20 so just stay with 0w30. Mpg gains is less than percent and fuel type would have a bigger impact on mpg in that heat.
#5
01-31-2012 | 10:46 AM
Thread Starter
|
Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 31
From: Gorham, ME
While I appreciate members taking the time to reply ... this thread specifically asks for negative experiences that can be traced to xW-20 oil in very hot climates.
Honda is adamant that xW-20 will adequately lubricate their engines in all climates while [mainly] focusing on cold starting and fuel economy.
Furthermore, Honda is now backward recommending xW-20 for cars made after the 2000 model year. This indicates their move to fine tolerance engines started well before xW-20 oils were available in the USA.
I suspect Honda (and Toyota) is absolutely correct; the heavier "hot" viscosity of multigrade oils is entirely related to engine component tolerances and pumping efficiency and not climate.
This issue is important. At a minimum viscosity-related engine failures would challenge Honda's vaunted 200,000 mile plus reliability reputation. Honda is already testing 0W-10 in Japan to verify long-term engine reliability and if that grade becomes the new standard xW-20 will replace xW-30 in advanced (aka Japanese) engines.
So, please, let's stay on message!
Honda is adamant that xW-20 will adequately lubricate their engines in all climates while [mainly] focusing on cold starting and fuel economy.
Furthermore, Honda is now backward recommending xW-20 for cars made after the 2000 model year. This indicates their move to fine tolerance engines started well before xW-20 oils were available in the USA.
I suspect Honda (and Toyota) is absolutely correct; the heavier "hot" viscosity of multigrade oils is entirely related to engine component tolerances and pumping efficiency and not climate.
This issue is important. At a minimum viscosity-related engine failures would challenge Honda's vaunted 200,000 mile plus reliability reputation. Honda is already testing 0W-10 in Japan to verify long-term engine reliability and if that grade becomes the new standard xW-20 will replace xW-30 in advanced (aka Japanese) engines.
So, please, let's stay on message!
#6
01-31-2012 | 12:34 PM
I drove a little less than 4 years and 28,000 miles using 5w20 and 0w20 for awhile with no problems.. I even used 0w2 during the winter after supercharging the engine and found that I lost about 4 ounces of oil between changes when the temperature warmed up in early summer... When I increased boost from 5 to 10 PSI I had to change to 10w30 oil or the rear hatch would become covered with a mist of oil every time I was on boost.. 5w30 was too light and misted the hatch also... Since you wife is driving short distances in a stock car with automatic transmission I can't see why anything heavier than 0w20 would be needed though I would change to 5w20 or a little higher during the hot months just for added peace of mind... You summer mirrors what we had this last year.
#7
01-31-2012 | 01:25 PM
0w and 5w are the cold weight, Tex. I'm sure you know that, but its the big number that is the important factor in hot weather.
You have to use the 30w being in Texas because you not only have much higher than normal cylinder pressures, but more heat as well from the denser charge the Rotrex gives you.
You might even be a candidate for 5w40, provided it doesn't send your oil pressure through the roof.
To the OP:
What is being said is relevant to your discussion, I don't think you fully or even partially understand oil grade, type or weight.
You want that 30w if the ambient temp is over 100F and you are commuting.
Check out the climate in Japan and compare it to yours.
Then look at the temp range specs provided in the manuals of various cars. You will see that environment is crucial to oil selection. And for your environment you need a a heavier oil.
Compare avg. temp by month in Scottsdale to Saitama for instance.
The Fit is not an especially tight toleranced engine, tighter than many... but nothing special.
But what do I know, I only build and boost these things. 
I suspect you will ignore this and go with your gut of course, as is the trend here. Good Luck.
You have to use the 30w being in Texas because you not only have much higher than normal cylinder pressures, but more heat as well from the denser charge the Rotrex gives you.
You might even be a candidate for 5w40, provided it doesn't send your oil pressure through the roof.
To the OP:
What is being said is relevant to your discussion, I don't think you fully or even partially understand oil grade, type or weight.
You want that 30w if the ambient temp is over 100F and you are commuting.
Check out the climate in Japan and compare it to yours.
Then look at the temp range specs provided in the manuals of various cars. You will see that environment is crucial to oil selection. And for your environment you need a a heavier oil.
Compare avg. temp by month in Scottsdale to Saitama for instance.
The Fit is not an especially tight toleranced engine, tighter than many... but nothing special.
Block specs:
-Bore Diameter:
--- New: 73.00-73.02 mm (2.8740-2.8748 in.)
--- Service Limit: 73.07 mm (2.8767 in.)
-Warpage of deck:
--- New - 0.07 mm (0.003 in.) max.
--- Service limit - 0.10 mm (0.004 in.)
Compression Specs:
-Pressure
--- Minimum - 980 kPa (10.0 kgf/cm2, 142 psi)
--- Maximum variation - 200 kPa (2.0 kgf/cm2, 28 psi)
Connecting Rod specs:
-Small-end bore diameter = 17.964-17.977 mm (0.707-0.708 in.)
-Large-end bore diameter = 43.0 mm (1.69 in.)
Crankshaft bearing Specifications:
Crankshaft Specifications:
-Main journal diameter = 49.976-50.000 mm (1.9676-1.9685 in.)
-Rod journal diameter = 39.976-40.000 mm (1.5739-1.5748 in.)
-Rod/main journal taper:
--- New - 0.005 mm (0.0002 in.)
--- Service Limit - 0.010 mm (0.0004 in.)
-Rod/main journal out-of-round:
--- New - 0.005 mm (0.0002 in.)
--- Service Limit - 0.010 mm (0.0004 in.)
-End play:
--- New - 0.10-0.35 mm (0.004-0.014 in.)
--- Service Limit - 0.45 mm (0.018 in.)
-Runout:
--- New - 0.03 mm (0.0012 in.) max.
--- Service Limit - 0.04 mm (0.0016 in.)
Ignition timing Specifications
-At idle Check the red mark = M/T and A/T - 8* (-/+2*) BTDC
Piston pin Specifications
-O.D. = 17.996-18.000 mm (0.7085-0.7087 in.)
-Pin-to-piston clearance = 0.010-0.018 mm (0.0004-0.0007 in.)
Piston ring Specifications
-Ring-to-groove clearance:
--- Top:
----- New - 0.065-0.090 mm (0.0026-0.0035 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.15 mm (0.006 in.)
--- Second:
----- New - 0.030-0.055 mm (0.0012-0.0022 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.13 mm (0.005 in.)
-Ring end gap:
--- Top:
----- New - 0.15-0.30 mm (0.006-0.012 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.60 mm (0.024 in.)
--- Second:
----- New - 0.35-0.50 mm (0.014-0.020 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.65 mm (0.026 in.)
--- Oil:
----- New - 0.20-0.70 mm (0.008-0.028 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.80 mm (0.031 in.)
Piston Specifications
-Skirt O.D. @ 16mm(0.6 in.) from bottom of skirt:
----- New - 72.98-72.99 mm (2.8732-2.8736 in.)
----- Service Limit - 72.97 mm (2.8728 in.)
-Clearance in cylinder:
----- New - 0.010-0.040 mm (0.0004-0.0016 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.05 mm (0.002 in.)
-Ring groove width:
--- Top:
----- New - 1.050-1.060 mm (0.0413-0.0417 in.)
----- Service Limit - 1.08 mm (0.043 in.)
--- Second:
----- New - 1.220-1.230 mm (0.0481-0.0484 in.)
----- Service Limit - 1.250 mm (0.0492 in)
--- Oil:
----- New - 2.005-2.020 mm (0.0789-0.0795 in.)
----- Service Limit - 2.050 mm (0.0807 in.)
Spark plug Specifications
-Type = NGK: IZFR6K13 / DENSO: SKJ20DR-M13
-Gap = 1.2-1.3 mm (0.042-0.051 in.)
Valve guide Specifications
-I.D.:
--- Intake/Exhaust:
----- New - 5.51-5.53 mm (0.217-0.218 in.)
----- Service Limit - 5.55 mm (0.219 in.)
-Installed Height:
--- Intake/Exhaust: 15.85-16.35 mm (0.624-0.644 in.)
Valve seat Specifications
-Width:
--- Intake:
----- New - 0.850-1.150 mm (0.0335-0.0453 in.)
----- Service Limit - 1.60 mm (0.063 in.)
--- Exhaust:
----- New - 1.250-1.550 mm (0.0492-0.0610 in.)
----- Service Limit - 2.00 mm (0.079 in.)
-Stem installed height:
--- Intake:
----- New - 46.1-46.5 mm (1.815-1.831 in.)
----- Service Limit - 46.8 mm (1.843 in.)
--- Exhaust:
----- New - 46.2-46.6 mm (1.819-1.835 in.)
----- Service Limit - 46.9 mm (1.846 in.)
Valve Specifications
-Clearance (cold):
--- Intake:
----- New - 0.17±0.02 mm (0.007±0.0008 in.)
--- Exhaust:
----- New -0.28±0.02 mm (0.011±0.0008 in.)
-Stem O.D.:
--- Intake:
----- New - 5.48-5.49 mm (0.2157-0.2161 in.)
----- Service Limit - 5.45 mm (0.215 in.)
--- Exhaust:
----- New - 5.45-5.46 mm (0.2146-0.2150 in.)
----- Service Limit - 5.42 mm (0.213 in.)
-Stem-to-guide clearance:
--- Intake:
----- New - 0.020-0.050 mm (0.0008-0.0020 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.08 mm (0.003 in.)
--- Exhaust:
----- New - 0.050-0.080 mm (0.0020-0.0031 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.11 mm (0.004 in.)
Valve spring Specifications
-Free Length:
--- Intake: 50.52 mm (1.989 in.)
--- Exhaust: 57.37 mm (2.259 in.)
-Bore Diameter:
--- New: 73.00-73.02 mm (2.8740-2.8748 in.)
--- Service Limit: 73.07 mm (2.8767 in.)
-Warpage of deck:
--- New - 0.07 mm (0.003 in.) max.
--- Service limit - 0.10 mm (0.004 in.)
Compression Specs:
-Pressure
--- Minimum - 980 kPa (10.0 kgf/cm2, 142 psi)
--- Maximum variation - 200 kPa (2.0 kgf/cm2, 28 psi)
Connecting Rod specs:
-Small-end bore diameter = 17.964-17.977 mm (0.707-0.708 in.)
-Large-end bore diameter = 43.0 mm (1.69 in.)
Crankshaft bearing Specifications:
Crankshaft Specifications:
-Main journal diameter = 49.976-50.000 mm (1.9676-1.9685 in.)
-Rod journal diameter = 39.976-40.000 mm (1.5739-1.5748 in.)
-Rod/main journal taper:
--- New - 0.005 mm (0.0002 in.)
--- Service Limit - 0.010 mm (0.0004 in.)
-Rod/main journal out-of-round:
--- New - 0.005 mm (0.0002 in.)
--- Service Limit - 0.010 mm (0.0004 in.)
-End play:
--- New - 0.10-0.35 mm (0.004-0.014 in.)
--- Service Limit - 0.45 mm (0.018 in.)
-Runout:
--- New - 0.03 mm (0.0012 in.) max.
--- Service Limit - 0.04 mm (0.0016 in.)
Ignition timing Specifications
-At idle Check the red mark = M/T and A/T - 8* (-/+2*) BTDC
Piston pin Specifications
-O.D. = 17.996-18.000 mm (0.7085-0.7087 in.)
-Pin-to-piston clearance = 0.010-0.018 mm (0.0004-0.0007 in.)
Piston ring Specifications
-Ring-to-groove clearance:
--- Top:
----- New - 0.065-0.090 mm (0.0026-0.0035 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.15 mm (0.006 in.)
--- Second:
----- New - 0.030-0.055 mm (0.0012-0.0022 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.13 mm (0.005 in.)
-Ring end gap:
--- Top:
----- New - 0.15-0.30 mm (0.006-0.012 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.60 mm (0.024 in.)
--- Second:
----- New - 0.35-0.50 mm (0.014-0.020 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.65 mm (0.026 in.)
--- Oil:
----- New - 0.20-0.70 mm (0.008-0.028 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.80 mm (0.031 in.)
Piston Specifications
-Skirt O.D. @ 16mm(0.6 in.) from bottom of skirt:
----- New - 72.98-72.99 mm (2.8732-2.8736 in.)
----- Service Limit - 72.97 mm (2.8728 in.)
-Clearance in cylinder:
----- New - 0.010-0.040 mm (0.0004-0.0016 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.05 mm (0.002 in.)
-Ring groove width:
--- Top:
----- New - 1.050-1.060 mm (0.0413-0.0417 in.)
----- Service Limit - 1.08 mm (0.043 in.)
--- Second:
----- New - 1.220-1.230 mm (0.0481-0.0484 in.)
----- Service Limit - 1.250 mm (0.0492 in)
--- Oil:
----- New - 2.005-2.020 mm (0.0789-0.0795 in.)
----- Service Limit - 2.050 mm (0.0807 in.)
Spark plug Specifications
-Type = NGK: IZFR6K13 / DENSO: SKJ20DR-M13
-Gap = 1.2-1.3 mm (0.042-0.051 in.)
Valve guide Specifications
-I.D.:
--- Intake/Exhaust:
----- New - 5.51-5.53 mm (0.217-0.218 in.)
----- Service Limit - 5.55 mm (0.219 in.)
-Installed Height:
--- Intake/Exhaust: 15.85-16.35 mm (0.624-0.644 in.)
Valve seat Specifications
-Width:
--- Intake:
----- New - 0.850-1.150 mm (0.0335-0.0453 in.)
----- Service Limit - 1.60 mm (0.063 in.)
--- Exhaust:
----- New - 1.250-1.550 mm (0.0492-0.0610 in.)
----- Service Limit - 2.00 mm (0.079 in.)
-Stem installed height:
--- Intake:
----- New - 46.1-46.5 mm (1.815-1.831 in.)
----- Service Limit - 46.8 mm (1.843 in.)
--- Exhaust:
----- New - 46.2-46.6 mm (1.819-1.835 in.)
----- Service Limit - 46.9 mm (1.846 in.)
Valve Specifications
-Clearance (cold):
--- Intake:
----- New - 0.17±0.02 mm (0.007±0.0008 in.)
--- Exhaust:
----- New -0.28±0.02 mm (0.011±0.0008 in.)
-Stem O.D.:
--- Intake:
----- New - 5.48-5.49 mm (0.2157-0.2161 in.)
----- Service Limit - 5.45 mm (0.215 in.)
--- Exhaust:
----- New - 5.45-5.46 mm (0.2146-0.2150 in.)
----- Service Limit - 5.42 mm (0.213 in.)
-Stem-to-guide clearance:
--- Intake:
----- New - 0.020-0.050 mm (0.0008-0.0020 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.08 mm (0.003 in.)
--- Exhaust:
----- New - 0.050-0.080 mm (0.0020-0.0031 in.)
----- Service Limit - 0.11 mm (0.004 in.)
Valve spring Specifications
-Free Length:
--- Intake: 50.52 mm (1.989 in.)
--- Exhaust: 57.37 mm (2.259 in.)
I suspect you will ignore this and go with your gut of course, as is the trend here. Good Luck.
#9
01-31-2012 | 11:52 PM
Yes, some of us know.
What you as a layman would do with such information is the more important question.
Also, you'll have to be more specific. There are many different points to take the temperature from that would be of note..
Are you talking coolant? Coolant in the block passages or coolant on the intake side of the head? Exhaust side?
What about the oil temps? In the Sump? Under sheer stress and compression in the bearings? Passing over the valve stems in the exhaust? Through the rockers?
Simply asking for a vague temperature, and knowing you.. trying to make any sort of meaningful conclusion leads nowhere.
What you as a layman would do with such information is the more important question.
Also, you'll have to be more specific. There are many different points to take the temperature from that would be of note..
Are you talking coolant? Coolant in the block passages or coolant on the intake side of the head? Exhaust side?
What about the oil temps? In the Sump? Under sheer stress and compression in the bearings? Passing over the valve stems in the exhaust? Through the rockers?
Simply asking for a vague temperature, and knowing you.. trying to make any sort of meaningful conclusion leads nowhere.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 01-31-2012 at 11:55 PM.
#10
02-01-2012 | 12:02 AM
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
I did some reach on the 0w10 Green oil that Honda stopped working on and Shell took over. They got a 6.5 percent increase in city and 4 percent in mixed. Fuel type can give more than that. I also know that 10w is too thin for extended drains because the oil will thin out causing lost of compression and causing leaks. 0w30 is not that much different than 5w20 and is recommended in my car in Europe.
#12
02-01-2012 | 11:07 PM
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
Oil temps can get 30/50 degrees higher than the coolant under full loads and rpms like in a racing situation but drops quickly.
Air intake temps will be mostly affected by the raise in out side temps. Causing knock and poor mpg with less power. On average the intake temps is about 10 degrees higher than the outside when cruising but there is more to it. At idle it can go up even higher because the air is not moving.
#13
02-01-2012 | 11:14 PM
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,500
From: New York
Thanks. I figured that the coolant would stay cool enough, given the fan, etc. And that the oil might or might not get a little hotter, similarly CHT or whatever's the equivalent in cars. Someone with a scangauge might be able to see if heat makes a difference.
I can see that hotter air coming into the engine might make a difference, but then the computer can adjust for all sorts of things including air density...
I can see that hotter air coming into the engine might make a difference, but then the computer can adjust for all sorts of things including air density...
#14
02-01-2012 | 11:26 PM
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
Thanks. I figured that the coolant would stay cool enough, given the fan, etc. And that the oil might or might not get a little hotter, similarly CHT or whatever's the equivalent in cars. Someone with a scangauge might be able to see if heat makes a difference.
I can see that hotter air coming into the engine might make a difference, but then the computer can adjust for all sorts of things including air density...
I can see that hotter air coming into the engine might make a difference, but then the computer can adjust for all sorts of things including air density...
I know you dont want to hear this but octane types too can be seen too. Just saying dont want to rehash that now. The CRZ has a flash-pro and they are seeing added timing with less fuel because there is less knock during their data logs. Its the same motor as in the Fit.
Barometric pressure has a effect too. High pressure the air forces down and low pressures the air is rising causing the car to go through the air easier.
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