No this is incorrect. There is more to Top Tier than this. Without a source your claims are not at all convincing.


It's is not incumbent upon you to validate his claims. If he wants to be believed or convincing then he has to provide evidence for his claims. So far, he has not done that. So, we have no reason to take his statements with more than a grain of salt.


Here is more information that supports Honda's recommendations for Top Tier:

See this post: Top Tier is a good thing

See this article (ten years old but still relevent): Larry Webster: Your Car is a Temple, so Put in the Good Stuff - Column - Car and Driver

--- Update to this post ---

And another article: http://blogs.motortrend.com/1403_all...chnologue.html

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And I will ask others to stop posting advertising hype disguised as information.

The fact is that anyone buying gas in the US is likely buying "Top Tier" fuel without knowing it. Even the cheapest ARCO and Costco gas (which is what I generally buy) is "Top Tier". It would be very difficult to not fuel one's car with "Top Tier" gas fairly consistently.

 

ARCO and Costco are listed as Top Tier providers. See my link upthread.

 

My point exactly. Nothing special or expensive about that designation!

 

I have no idea where you get your information George... it seems you just say whatever you happen to believe with no reference to any credible source. Sorry but, I don't believe what you say just because you say it, especially when it contradicts what I have read from credible sources.

If a gasoline retailer wants their gas to be designated Top Tier then they have to go through Top Tier's licensing process:

"Top Tier is a performance standard, establishing tests and minimum acceptable results for intake-valve and combustion-chamber deposits, fuel-injector fouling, and intake-valve sticking. It also requires that all fuel grades marketed by the brand meet the standard (not just the premium grade, for example). Additive manufacturers pay for the testing, fuel suppliers pay an annual fee to participate, and compliance testing is conducted by third-party labs."

Source: All Fuels Are Not Created Equal - Technologue - Motor Trend

If one wants to be assured that the gas they buy meets the standards set forth in this process all they have to do is follow Honda's recommendations and buy the Top Tier gas. When it is available, I will always prefer Top Tier gas... why wouldn't I ???

.

 

I've been reading some of this information in the same place as you and most everyone else in this thread found your expertise, the first page of Google results for "Top Tier Gasoline". That's where you found that Motor Trend blog.

Oh, and I'm also an engineer and I've actually done fuel testing in the lab and on test engines. I know something of this subject even without reference to Google!

There's nothing special about dropping some amines into gasoline and giving it a fancy name. It's been done ever since cars have run on the stuff. The chemistry is a bit beyond the automotive journalists but they will happily parrot the press releases.

The fact is that most fuel, even cheap stuff from ARCO and Costco, now meets the "top tier" standard and even if you occasionally run some fuel with a lesser amount of detergents it will be remedied as soon as refill with the higher-detergent stuff. Even Chevron and Shell agree, albeit vaguely, according to the blog you cited:

 

So you say, okay. But, yeah anyway, my reference was the Motor Trend blog... not Google... but, I would love to know what your search terms were because I think I went three pages into to the Google results to find THAT!!!

I think its special but, that's just me... YMMV

Are these ppl parroting press releases? It doesn't sound that way to me. It sounds like experts making well-informed and well-reasoned statements that the journalist is reporting to us with direct quotations:

<start text quoted from source referenced below>

Top Tier fuels feature more of these additives than regular gas. In 1995 the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) set a minimum standard for gasoline additives. Since then, refiners and fuel blenders have actually reduced the amount of detergent they put in fuel by about 50 percent. In the long run this cutback has impacted the ability of vehicles to meet emission standards.

According to Bill Studzinski, Fuels Technical Specialist at General Motors, a number of OEMs saw this problem and got together to push for higher levels of detergency. He said Top Tier gasoline is a better fuel for engines, and that it takes the mystery out of what a good fuel is and what an average fuel is.

Chris Martin, a spokesman for Honda said “we’ve supported it [Top Tier gasoline] because we’ve seen a benefit from it for our consumers in the long run.” He also said the average driver doesn’t know about detergent additives, they just look for the cheapest gas available but “Top Tier fuel goes a step beyond that.”

“We don’t require that our vehicle owners use Top Tier gas” Martin said, but it helps “make sure the engines are going to last as long as they could.” This is obviously beneficial, especially since Honda drivers historically keep their cars for a long time.

Responding to questions via e-mail, Marie Valentine, the Senior Principle Engineer, Vehicle Regulation and Certification Engineering, Toyota Technical Center, said the amount of detergents in Top Tier gas is about twice what’s required by the EPA. However, it can vary depending “on the base gasoline and the chemistry of the detergent additive.”
<end quoted text>

source: Which Gas Stations Sell the Best Quality Gasoline? » AutoGuide.com News

Well that's very interesting (truly) and maybe even an actual reality. However it doesn't change the fact that the Auto makers did decide to set a higher standard than EPA for fuel performance and it is identified with Top Tier licensing and Honda recommends it for the Fit.

Maybe that means nothing to you but I think it is meaningful and helpful to me as a car owner... who loves his lil' Honda...

Best to you George!


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I searched on exactly that phrase: "Top Tier Gasoline" (without quotes). The blog was the fourth item listed, right after the Wikipedia article which quotes radio personalities Click and Clack as fuel experts!

They're doing an excellent job of promotion. They've got you convinced that their product is something special even though nothing they said gave a clue that they actually understood what the detergents do or how they do it beyond some vague statements that they help keep engines clean. They don't even say which detergents are used.

Read the press releases on the Top Tier site, then read the articles. Notice how many phrases from the releases found their way into the articles. It's pretty obvious that much of the journalism is cut-and-paste.

There's nothing wrong with Top Tier fuel, and if you fuel up in the US you're likely getting it even if the pump isn't trademarked. Detergents aren't proprietary chemicals and some fuel suppliers just aren't going to pay the fees to use the trademark even though their fuels meets the specification.

 

I have nothing to add.

Just wanted to indicate that I'm enjoying this discussion. Thanks guys!

 

Hey GeorgeL, if you are so smart, why haven't you given use any links to some official sites that back you up. Just because you said you are an engineer doesn't me a darn thing to us on this forum. I want facts from a reliable source, not a forum member whom rants that this Tier 1 gas is bogus. I've read a number of sites that say differently, but you have listed absolutely NONE

 

It is true that all of the gases come from pretty much the same bunch of refineries, and the same truck might deliver fuel to the generic station and then to the Chevron, my understanding is that additional detergents and such are mixed in after delivery and aren't necessarily in the fuel that is on the truck. This would be how the Chevron would claim a higher detergent level than the generic station across the street. It would be a legitimate claim.

Nearly every car manufacturer is recommending these fuels, and I doubt they're doing that because of payola from the Top Tier marketing organization. Unless someone shows me good evidence that this is why they're making that recommendation, I'm going to figure on more apparent reasons, such as that the fuels actually do keep the engine cleaner.

 

^^^^ This

An engineer in one field does not make that person an expert in all fields.

example: An engineer of geology shouldn't make opinionated statements about Astrophysics because they are not degreed in Astrophysics and probably have very little real knowledge in the subject.

GeorgeL is pulling the "I'm an engineer so I am an expert in all fields card" along with his refusal to publish any links backing up his claims shows that he is just trolling.

Just ignore his posts and move on.

 

I don't know that I would accuse him of trolling. A troll is typically someone who may or may not actually believe what they are posting, but who is posting something inflammatory for the sole effect of getting a strong reaction out of people. A troll thrives on the outrage and isn't looking to persuade or inform anyone.

I do think George believes what he is saying, intends to persuade or inform people, and doesn't appear to be merely getting kicks from producing outrage.

I think that he has simply failed to provide any independent, reliable, reputable data for the case he is wanting to make. He may or may not be right (I don't believe he is) but he won't establish that he is without some good data to counteract the information some of the others have read and which FatMan has linked. He may not find the quality of those sources to be adequate, but compared to no sources at all, they must be preferred.

His shortcoming here isn't that he is trolling, but that he either does not want to take the time to locate the information to support his case or doesn't want to acknowledge that there is none (if that is true). He would prefer that we accept what he is suggesting on his word alone, but because what he is suggesting is contrary to other sources we've found, and this is becoming a topic of controversy, something more than a person's word is going to be preferred.

 

I call BS on this claim. I haven't checked out all the links in this thread, but I note that one of Fat_man's links points to an article that seems to be based entirely on marketing claims recited by people working for Top Tier and its consortium members; auto manufacturers and fuel companies. I don't see how that "must be preferred", since it has no credibility at all; it's merely advertising masquerading as an informative article.

I did some web-searching on the subject a few months back, and I didn't find anything supporting Top Tier's claims that couldn't be traced back to their own spokespersons and those of Top Tier's consortium members. Everything seemed to circle back to the same corporate talking points, from the same sources lacking any credibility.

Fat_man and GeorgeL have made conflicting claims, and simply because Fat_man posted links, that doesn't mean he has supported his claims any better than GeorgeL has supported his. At least GeorgeL hasn't resorted to laughably unreliable sources, nor has he claimed that such nonsense "must be preferred." An independent technical evaluation, from someone in a position of expertise but not related to the Top Tier consortium, would be useful; but I haven't seen Top Tier or its advocates providing any such links.

 

As an engineer I certainly don't know everything, but vehicle and fuel technology does happen to fall within my narrow sphere of expertise. It is sad that some people's knee-jerk reaction is to distrust engineers, particularly when we're discussing a car built by a company whose fame was built by excellent engineering.

It seems that some people believe that if something is not on the Internet it isn't valid. Unfortunately, most knowledge that is deeper than a Wikipedia article isn't readily available on-line. You might find it on an academic database but these usually require a subscription as well as the background to understand what one is reading.

Deeper information that relates to marketing and competitive issues is usually proprietary and not on-line at all. Companies are loathe to release any specific information because they have found that doing so exposes them to liability in the future. Why release specifics when 99% of customers will be motivated by fancy but ambiguous terms like "Top Tier"? A good example of this is Honda's reluctance to say exactly what their "Eco" button does. If they did, and some characteristic of the button's function caused an accident, then Honda could be found liable. Better to keep the customers dumb and happy.

For basic knowledge of how detergents work in fuels the best sources are still textbooks in petroleum engineering and chemistry. They aren't generally available on the Internet, but may be available in e-book form.

The other question is if this issue is really one that has a "scientific" solution. I'm not debating whether putting detergents in gasoline is desirable. What I am questioning is the reasoning behind the near-religious fervor some of us assign to a couple of lines in their owner's manual. There is no way to scientifically evaluate things like beauty and goodness so any attempt to do so goes back to being an exercise in marketing.

Someone who fuels his vehicle at random stations is probably getting "Top Tier" levels of detergency the majority of the time even if the trademark isn't present. That's the nature of the fuel business.

 

Costco has Top Tier gasoline and it is usually cheaper than everyone elses.

 

lol this

I love Arco/AMPM. Spicy hot dogs with chili and some jalapenos are good. That's about all I get there though.

My car runs poorly on Arco and Valero. That is my scientific evidence i'd like to submit to Fitfreak.com Engineering Division.

 

I use a 50/50 mix of VP Racing's C14 blend and 100 proof Straight Kentucky Bourbon Whiskey. The i-Vtec loves it.


J/K, 87 octane from whatever station looks clean with short lines.

 

I did a little more digging about top tier gas (detergent added), and Shell seemed to come up a lot as good brand. The post on the drive accord forum cites a study about TT and whether there is more of a difference between the different levels of octanes. It looks like there is only a slight difference to go from 87 to 91 among the TT vendors.

Manual recommends using Top Tier Gas. What do you use? - Page 2 - Drive Accord Honda Forums

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdreibelbis
So a question about Shell - or any Top Tier gasoline retailer: is *all* the gas they sell Top Tier?

Short answer: With regard to Shell gasoline, yes, all grades/octanes are Top Tier rated based on the level of detergent properties per milliliter.

In this regard, the question that always comes up is whether there are more detergents in higher octane Top Tier gasolines. Again, the answer is yes.

To find out how much more and how various fuels differed, last year one of the news services (ABC?) asked/paid Paragon Labs to test several of the TT fuels, including Exxon-Mobil (XOM), Shell (RDS), British Petroleum (BP) and four or five others. Among regular grades of fuel, those three came out on top (which is why I remember them), and they were comparable (approximately 15 milligrams of additives per milliliter). When it came to the higher octanes however, RDS had twice the detergent properties in their 91 octane fuel (31 mg/ml), and roughly 18% more than their next competitor, XOM (31 mg/ml for RDS vs. 26mg/ml for XOM). Shell also has a unique additive, nitrogen, which independent testing has determined more readily combines with carbon atoms during the combustion process. The result is a cleaner burning fuel.

This, of course, begs the question as to whether there are any other reasons to use 91 (or higher) octane fuel. This has been debated here endlessly. However, FWIW, if you are familiar with how Honda's engine control module (ECM) works, you know that within a narrow range (and that's important), the EMU will advance and retard the ignition in response to "pinging" (that rattling sound you hear when an engine is lugged) or the absence of it. In other words, if you consistently use a higher octane fuel, the ECM will respond to the absence of detonation, and advance the timing slightly within the fixed parameters of the EMU. Thus, the engine performs better, and you can get slightly better mileage. Whether that slight improvement and the additional additives are worth the additional cost is, of course, entirely up to you as an educated consumer.

 

Here's the Paragon link reference:
According to this lab analysis it is clear that premium gasoline contain higher levels of detergents.

Detergents - TEST RESULTS (Source: Paragon Laboratories)
www.wxyz.com/news/region/wayne-county/detergent-in-gas-helps-the-engine-run-cleaner-and-smoother-so-just-how-much-is-in-there-

Regular Unleaded 87 Octane (per 100 mL.)

Exxon 20.0mg
BP 17.2mg
Shell 16.2mg
Marathon 8.2mg
Citgo 6.0mg
Pilot 5.8mg
Speedway 5.2mg

Premium Unleaded 92 or 93 Octane (per 100mL)

Shell 31.0mg
BP 26.4mg
Exxon 21.2mg
Speedway 10.6mg
Mobil 10.6mg
Citgo 9.4mg
Marathon 9.0mg
Pilot 8.8mg