Hello,

I am looking to recharge my ac on my 2010 Fit as it doesn't blow very cold anymore. Is there a specific type or brand that I should purchase that works bet with the fit?
Also some brands say they have oil mixed in...does that matter?

thanks,
SS

 

Make sure it actually needs refrigerant (freon, R134a) before just stuffing some into it. 75% of the AC problems I see in our shop are electrical or mechanical in nature.

If the system quits cooling completely, the compressor clutch won't engage--- but the radiator fans still kick on when you try to run the AC, it's not a freon problem.

-----

Many different brands sell exactly the same thing.
Read the labels.

R134a is the only correct refrigerant. No mixtures, no substitutes.
With PAG oil is ok if the system has lost oil. ("PAG" is the correct oil. No other types. PAG 46 if you have a choice. )
With UV dye is ok. (UV dye can help you find the leak later on)

Sealants are not ok. If it has a leak, find and fix the leak.
If it ever has to go to a pro, that sealant can clog up the charging station (that's probably worth more than most of the cars it gets connected to)

 

Everything is working properly but it's just not very cold.

 

Stupid Question.
But if an owner's Air Conditioning isn't working, and they try an over the counter refrigerant exchange, replacement, is it going to hurt anything? Assuming they do buy the right type and follow the correct directions.

Can you safely...try replacing refrigerant, and then if that doesn't work, conclude the problem is greater and then seek further repair?

 

If one actually manages to add to a non-working system, yes.
If one adds a product that isn't correct for the car, then yes again.

These small capacity AC systems have very little room for error, going over or under the target charge weight by just a couple ounces can greatly diminish cooling efficiency/performance.

As far as I'm concerned, no.
A DIYer can't recover freon, you run the risk of getting burned (frostbite), and a non-running system cannot be charged correctly from a can.

Really, I do not like that the DIYer (in the US anyway) can purchase small cans of refrigerant that may or may not be right for their car, possibly trash their own systems (not many people actually know enough about refrigeration to DIY it well, and some of the sealants sold can cause serious damage), and the DIYer doesn't have to follow any of the rules and regulations a professional must adhere to.
I'm trained and certified to work with a variety of refrigerants. I have to follow a boatload of rules, but y'all can just PSSSSSSHHHHHT the freon into the atmosphere wily-nilly....If the EPA catches a pro or a shop doing the same thing he could be slapped with a hefty fine....
Here, read these:
https://www.escogroup.org/documents/609pm.pdf

https://www.epa.gov/mvac/epa-regulat...stem-servicing

 

Well thanks for the insight.
I've never had to add freon to the air conditioning in any of my vehicles. Probably just luck. But now, if I ever have a problem, I'll probably bypass the DIY attempt.

 

Hey ezone,
off-topic, so stop me if too in-appropriate. You mentioned UV dye for checking leaks. Do you have any opinion on UV dye vs. the sniff detectors, and possibly some good brands for each? On one of my cars, the engine was pulled and replaced, and the a/c never worked correctly after that due to a freon leak. It works perfect immediately after charging, but stops cooling a couple months later. Two different shops could not trace the leak. I want to try hunting the leak myself (since I will have more patience to look meticulously). The car is a classic/sentimental, so I'm willing to invest some into this.

 

That sounds like a pretty rapid leak.

Charge up the system, then spray soapy water all over it and see if/where bubbles form?

Have you resealed all fittings that might have been disassembled/disturbed when that work was done?
Were correct seal types used?
O rings (and other seals) of different compositions are used with different types of refrigerants, a generic natural rubber O ring cannot be used in place of Nitrile or HSNr or HNBR and still expect years of reliable service when exposed to any chemical it is not specifically resistant to.

There are different sniffers (leak detectors) for each of various types of gases.
Unless someone thought they could do better (non-standard refrigerants and blends), or unless an old R12 system has been converted to R134a, automotive refrigerants will be R12 (pre 1996), R134a (~1994-current) or R1234yf (~2014-current)....and Benz may be using CO2 now as well......... and each requires a dedicated sniffer (I think someone markets a dual purpose sniffer, but I don't know anything about the quality of it)
You can find sniffers for other purposes too, like stationary refrigeration (R22, R410a, etc) and combustible gases.


Brands...I'd have to check. I've got a couple in my toolbox for R12 and R134a (both well over 20 years old, and seldom used anymore---I don't even know if either still work LOL), the shop has a unit that is much newer (and better) than mine for R134 and I use it all the time. I'd have to see what brand it is.

Sniffer vs UV dye, each are extremely useful in the right time and place, and each has limitations. I use both as I see fit depending on the situation at hand.



AC leaks usually leave an oil stain near the leak. This is usually easy to find if you are observant, and a sniffer will often be able to confirm the presence of refrigerant, but not always. Sometimes the oil stain will be covered in dirt. HOWEVER, water can rinse away the oil residue, it happens more with R134a and PAG oil than older types used with R12.

Leaks don't always leak all the time. It's certainly possible for a leak to only occur while pressure is elevated in a running system, and sometimes temperature plays a big part in expansion/contraction which opens or closes leakage paths.


A sniffer is good for finding leaks immediately, but some limitations include:

it has to be leaking when checked (active leak)

low cost units are generally less able to detect very small leaks, might also pick up on things that are not the target

a slow leak might need more time than you give it

the sniffer needs to be kept extremely close to the part being checked in order to find traces of refrigerant gas, and in most cases clear access to all important surfaces of the AC system is impossible without a lot of extra work

leaking refrigerant will be a gas that is heavier than air, so technique and planning are important

IMO checks should be done indoors, because a slight breeze might negate all your investigation (blow away the evidence faster than your sniffer can find it)

----

When a sniffer doesn't find a leak, dye might and usually will. Dye is installed into the AC system, but then it MUST be allowed sufficient time and use to leak out. If there is no leakage then there will be no dye evidence to be found.
My boss always wants to tell people to come back in a week for dye inspection, but that doesn't always produce viable results either (if it leaked that fast, the sniffer test should have found it).

Dye is carried throughout the running system along with the systems oil, which is circulated as a mist while the AC compressor is operating. When the system is not running (car shut off), the oil mist settles to the low spots like any liquid would do....and the refrigerant (gas, not liquid) can still leak without any traces of dye left for evidence.

If the AC leak was so extremely slow that it took 10 years to make a noticeable difference in cooling, it might be quite a while (more years) before enough dye leaks out to be found.
OTOH rubber seals tend to shrink or harden as they age and are exposed to heat, so the rate of a leak caused by such rubber seal or O ring may continue to increase as time (and miles) goes on.

HTH

 

Wow; thanks for the incredibly detailed reply!
The dealer replaced all the orings they disturbed when pulling the engine, but maybe they took a shortcut somewhere. I spoke with one of the mechanics, and he did say that there was one particular oring that was an odd size and difficult to get.... There are some areas which are extremely difficult to visually see without disassembling the header panel and bumper, just as you mentioned.
To do a clean refill, my thought was to draw down the system with a vacuum pump overnight; that should remove any moisture, oil, etc (since they should vaporize under vacuum). And then refill it with the correct level of r134a, oil, and the dye from scratch and start checking from there. Does that sound correct to do?

 

Well.....if you already know it's got a leak, I'd suggest spend time to find it first so you can fix it while the system is emptied.
Soap bubble check might work if the system has some pressure in it (Dawn plus water in a spray bottle might be sufficient) ....but if it's a slow leak it can dry out before you find bubbles.

You could shoot some freon with dye in, drive it until it doesn't cool well again, then close the garage door and shine a blacklight all around the engine compartment and look for screaming bright stains to jump at you.



If there's a leak, the system probably won't hold vacuum. Part of good AC work is to pull a deep vacuum then close the gauge valves and check for vacuum decay/time. If the system can't hold a vacuum then it's definitely leaking. (also, depending on the nature of the leak it might be able to hold a vacuum but still leak under pressure)
Got a micron gauge?


Once you believe it's truly fixed you can go about treating it like it's a permanent repair.



Also...You will not remove the oil from a system using vacuum. Some oil may come out just because it's carried with the freon as a mist in a running system, but you cannot extract the liquid oil that stays in the compressor and pools in other low areas of the system using vacuum.



What's the old car? If it's an old GM with an R4 or A6 compressor, they both tended to leak from the shaft seal if you don't use them regularly. The front of the compressor might show some oil stain or the front of the pulley and clutch plate might. If it's a converted system it may be tough to stop all leaks if it wasn't done right. Some manufacturers required major component replacement or different hoses and whatnot to avoid seepage and maintain good or at least decent performance.
30-40+ years ago an annual AC recharge was just about expected, nobody blinked twice.

 

There's definitely a leak; there's no pressure in the system after a while.
Is there any good way to remove all the oil? At this point, I really have no idea how much oil is in the system, and I'd like to make sure it has the right amount. I've never seen it mentioned anywhere how to drain all the old oil out, only that the system had to have the correct amount of oil.
The car itself is a '94 Dodge Viper; it was the first year for a/c, but does use 134a. The condensor and a large number of hoses/fittings are buried in the nose of the car. Despite the huge hood, there's actually little room in there (8.0L ), and the last time the dealer removed the bumper, it took them nearly a day to re-shim back to the correct location. Needless to say, I don't want to take it off again....

 

Oh. Hell. If it's ANYthing like the rest of their fleet of that era, it probably needs an evaporator core.
Probably should do some google searching on the subject......
I never dealt with Viper, but I did serve time in a Jeep-Eagle dealer in the late 90s and evaporator core failures were probably THE most common leak throughout the Chrysler brands and models at the time...Neon/Stratus/Breeze, Trucks, Grand Cherokee, LHS/Intrepid/Vision/Concorde/New Yorker, and others.

Oil is not usually messed with.... standard practice is to add a specified amount for each component replaced, and/or add a small amount when recover/evacuate/recharge is done. I wouldn't normally want to mess with the oil unless there are signs that it's got way too much inside the system (oil takes up volume inside the system so too much oil can make a system act like it has too much freon charge even though the charge weight was verified correct) ....but then it's nearly impossible to know if previous work included standard procedures (adding oil) so you can't really know if it could be low.

Disassembly and flushing individual components and lines can remove a lot of it (R141b used to be readily available along with apparatus for flushing) , but the receiver-drier (or accumulator, depending on the system) might need to be replaced and compressor would have to be removed and drained upside down to get any significant amount out, maybe replaced to be sure it's all out.

 

About the only time you add or replace oil is when you replace a component, like the compressor, evaporator, dryer, etc. If you are just adding refrigerant we usually do not add oil.

R-134 is r-134. The only differences are cans with added oil, or added dye, or added stop leak, which normally you do not want. So just go buy the cheapest R-134 that you can find. Walmart is usually the cheapest place to buy it (except in Wisconsin). You will need a dispenser with a gauge to attach the can to the system.

DO NOT OVERCHARGE or undercharge. Read the gauge to determine when you have installed the correct amount.

 

Well, if done properly, it won't make things any worse. In the absense of charts showing high and low side pressure verses ambient temperature and humidity, you can empty out the system, and then fill it again, with the correct amount, measured by weight. It appears that Honda has these charts, but that in order to get them you have to subscribe to Honda's on-line service manual. This costs $30 to subscribe for just one day. Hopefully you won't need more than a day to find the charts. Since 24 ounces of refrigerant cost $12, emptying and refilling is the less expensive option (except for the cost of recovering the old refrigerant, and I don't know what that will cost). To remove and replace you'll need a scale that measures to about plus or minus 10 grams.

Now, if there is moisture or contaminants in the system, they will stay there, unless the system is evacuated, and the moisture will corrode the system from the inside, and the moisture and contaminants will prevent the system from cooling well. So if the owner merely replaces the refrigerant with the correct amount, the moisture and contaminants will remain in the system, it won't come out with the refrigerant, and it will continue to mess things up – but not any worse than it would have done anyway, if you had done nothing. It is quite possible also that someone put in the wrong refrigerant. If the problem was simply too little refrigerant, or the wrong refrigerant, and there was no moisture in the system, and no contaminants, then replacing the refrigerant with the correct refrigerant will make the system function well, provided there are no electromechanical things malfunctioning. The 2015-2020 Fit holds 425 grams, 15 ounces, of 134a. Buy 2 12-ounce cans. Put in one whole can. Then weigh the second can and keep it going in until it weighs 3 ounces less.

One more thing, very important. It is illegal to vent the refrigerant in a system to the air. A little bit that escapes accidentally when you attach or remove a hose, that is ok, but if you are emptying a system, legally you must use appropriate recovery equipment to bottle the refrigerant, and prevent it from going into the air. The recovery equipment is expensive. Like at least $400 or so I think. I don't know what shops charge to recover refrigerant. Because they have to pay for their expensive equipment, they are probably going to charge plenty.

So in short, yes you can replace the refrigerant, and it won't make anything any worse. If the system had moisture or contaminants they will continue doing the same harm they were doing, before you replaced the refrigerant. If the system simply had too little refrigerant, then replacing it won't do any harm, and it may or may not solve the problem of inadequate cooling.

 

We have ruined several car AC systems using the cans. Now we go to a local shop that does a proper job with the correct equipment and gauges.

 

Anyone know what type of refrigerant oil is needed. My aftermarket service manual (free through my public livrary, on-line, I think it was called "auto repair source motor driven ") says Honda part number 38897-PR7-A01AH, but that is outrageously expensive, like $27 US for 4 ounces (AC system uses 4 ounces total). It is described as PAG oil, but without a number following it. PAG oil, PAG46, or PAG100, generally costs about $7 at autozone or something like that.

 

Apparently there is more than one type of PAG oil. I've seen PAG 46 and PAG 100 for sale. Which is right? I don't know.

As far as sealant, i agree, in relatively new car, I would never want to add any kind of sealant. Glob knows what they can glop up. However in an old car with a mild leak, that you are planning to junk in a few months, perhaps you might want to try one of the so-called sealant that simply help rejuvinate rubber, doesn't actually fill any spaces. It might help an old rubber seal to seal better. But I wouldn't even use that on a newer car, any car less than 12 years old. I think its always better to find the leak and address the problem by repalcing a seal, tightening a connection, replacing a leaky part such a sa leaky compressor, condensor, or evaporationator.

 

I did some research and got some info...
for the 2015 Fit.
● Refrigerant R-134A capacity 425 grams 15 oz
● Or, according to under-hood label on car, 325 to 425g. 11.5 to 15 oz.
● Acc to owners manual: 13.2 – 15.0 oz (375 – 425 g)
My understanding is that earlier models are the same, but that in 2018 Denso, the manufacturer of the compressor, began saying 1234yf refrigerant was needed.

Regarding the refrigerant oil:
● From the label inside the 2015 engine compartment, "Honda PAG oil."
From the owners manual "ND-OIL8." More correctly, the info from Nippon Denso web site says, "ND-oil 8." ND-oil 8 stands for "Nippon Denso oil, type 8." ND-oil 8 is PAG 46 oil.

Here is Denso's page on refrigerants and oils.

They say that somewhere around 2018 they switched to 1234yf refrigerant and ND-oil 12, which is also a PAG 46 oil, but with special additives for 1234yf refrigerant. For 134a refrigerant they say you can use either ND-oil 8 or ND-oil 12, but for 1234yf refrigerant they want you to use only ND-oil 12. Apparently PAG 45H oil is the same as ND-oil 12. PAG 100 oil is a different oil.

At Auto Repair Source, they list the oil as Honda part number 38897-PR7-A01AH. Also, they list total system capacity as 4 ounces (120 ml). 1234yf systems use somewhat less oil. Furthermore...
● Compresor replacement oil capacity 2 oz, 62 ml
● Condensor replacement oil capacity 0.83 oz, 25 ml
● Evaporator replacement oil capacity 1.17 oz, 35 ml
● Hose line replacement oil capacity 0.33 oz, 10 ml
● Receiver drier replacement oil capacity 0.33 oz, 10 ml
● Clutch air gap 0.01 - .0.019 inch, 0.25 – 0.5 ml

Some refrigerant oil product labels such as say they contain a "performance enhancer" or "lubricant enhancer." They make rather extravagant claims for the additive, if indeed there actually is an additive that is any different than what is in the other brands. I suspect there is not.. In the past they said that it makes vent temperatures become 3 to 7 degrees cooler according to their tests. but I haven't seen that claim anymore recently. I wonder if some federal trade commission got on their case for using false advertising. And are those e if 3 to 7 degrees F degrees or C degrees? C degrees are 1.8 times as big as F degrees. The fact that they don't state if they mean C degrees or F degrees leads me to believe, to put it gently – they a full of shit. Anyway their tests. Not anyone else's tests.. And no actual tests are reported. So I'm calling bullshit. You can also buy a similarly described additive, by itself, supercool is a brand. However shrieve is very vague regarding what exactly ICE32 actually is. They simply use their trademarked marketing term, ICE32, which tells us absolutely nothing. Here is shrieve's web page on ICE32. https://www.shrieve.com/products-applications/hvacr/system-enhancers/ice32-ac-enhancer/ [I couldn't get a single word or a phrase to call up the link. The whole url was being displayed, so to regain control I just wrote out the whole url]

They say...
• Improving system reliability and efficiency... my comment: simply adding the right amount of the right oil does that
• Enhancing cooling performance... adding the right amount of the right oil does that
• Improving vehicle fuel economy.. adding the right amount of the right oil does that
• Reducing system noise... adding the right amount of the right oil does that
• Extending compressor life by reducing wear... adding the right amount of the right oil does that

I'm calling bullshit on ICE32. For 134a refrigerant, I would just buy any oil that says it meets PAG 46 specs. For 1234yf refrigerant, i would just buy any oil that meets PAG 46H specs. I love this comment from shrieve...
Instead of people offering things, we have a non-verbal substance making the offers. "ICE32... now offers to enhance..." And what does this inanimate object offer to enhance? It offers to enhance "the ever more important air conditioning service element for vehicle service centers and air conditioning specialists across Europe." Could anyone have any idea what that means? I think not. It is duckspeak. It is supposed to sound important, impressively meaningful, but it just sounds stupid. What they are trying to tell us is that they have some marketing bullshit shit that people in the business of servicing air conditioning equipment can quote when they are looking for some bullshit to say to their customers. In case they don't have enough creative imagination to come up with bullshit on their own. Fuck shrieve for coming up with this nonsense. and fuck Interdynamics of saying there is ICE32 in their refrigerant oil. There probably isn't even anything actually there – ICE32 is their marketing term for "nothing."

And another thing: I would not spend twice as much for oil with Denso's name on it. ND-oil 8 t is probably the same exact oil as any other PAG 46 oil, only with Denso's label slapped on it.

 

Well yes, if you use just the cans alone without first emptying the system and then weighing the amount of refrigerant that you put in (you'll need a scale that is accurate to about +or- 10 grams, +or- 2/10 of an ounce), which costs only about $10 US) you are likely to put in too little or too much refrigerant. That could possibly damage parts of the system. Using this method it is best to use a manifold gauge set. As you add refrigerant, seeing the what happens to the high side pressure as well as to the low side pressure will help you avoid putting refrigerant into a system that isn't going to work properly no matter how much refrigerant you put in. Also, older systems used more refrigerant, and there was more leeway between the max amount and minimum amount.

Another way to put in the correct amount is to have a chart showing the vent temperature, the low side pressure, and high side pressure, relative to the temperature and humidity going in at the blower – which you can arrange to be equal to the ambient temp and humidity by opening all of the cars doors. This takes more finesse than emptying the system and weighing how much refrigerant you put in, and is not as precise, but it can be done. Neverthelless there is much less leeway for error in modern 134a systems than there was in the older R12 systems, and to avoid putting too much stress on the compressor you might want to underestimate.

With the temp and pressure measurement method, if the system is already partially charges, you will need less refrigerant With either method, there is no reason you can't use the little 12-ounce cans of refrigerant that sell for about $6 US apiece. If you are weighing refrigerant, you'll need 12 oz from the first can + 3 from the second. Because there is so much more labor using the temperature and pressure measurement system, and because 2 12 ounce cans cost only $12, you might want to let out all the old refrigerant, and add a measured 15 ounces. Only problem: it is illegal to just let out the old refrigerant into the atmosphere. Legally it must be captured into a suitable container. In order to do that you will need recovery equipment that costs at least about $400 new..

If you are using the charts you will absolutely need a manifold gauge set, with 2 gauges, 1 for the low side and one for the high side. You will want to check all three of the measurements on the Y axis, the low side pressure the high side pressure and the vent temperature and make sure all 3 of them are in the right range, given the blower input temp and humidity. With this method, you can also use refrigerant in small cans. You'll want to measure vent temperature and system pressure after the engine has been running at 1500, for 10 minutes, and is turning at 1500 rpm when you do the tests.

I would not use refrigerant with additives. Some kinds of dye are ok, but sealants are a bad idea. Instead of sealing up leaks to the atmosphere, you may find that they clog up things inside. For 2010 or so to 2017 you need 134a. For 2018-2020 you need 1234yf. You may also need refrigerant oil as some may get lost when refrigerant leaks out. You can get the specs for the proper oil to go with the proper refrigerant, from Denso's web site. If I recall correctly, 134a systems use PAG 46 or PAG 46H. 1234yf systems use only PAG 46H. You can buy pressurized cans that contain a measured amount of both refrigerant and oil. That way you won't need any special tools to add the oil.

It is very common for auto repair shops to use the wrong type of oil. There are at least 4 or 5 distinctly different types of oil. They may only have one or 2 kinds in stock. It may be rather time-consuming for them to find out the correct oil. When I researched the oil for the Fit, at Auto Repair Source, and from of the companies that manufactures refrigerant oil, I got Honda's part number, 38897-PR7-A01AH. This turns out to be a standard type of oil with Honda's name on it, only Honda charges about twice as much. The Fit's compressor is made by Denso and at Denso's web site I got the name of Denso's brand of oil, also twice as much only because it has Denso's label on it. Denso spec is ND-oil 8. ND stands for Nippon Denso – so Nippon Denso oil type 8. This turns out to be ordinary PAG 46 oil. For Fits made around 2018 or so or later, with 1234yf refrigerant, ND-oil 12 is specified. This is not PAG 100. It is PAG 46H. The 46 is the viscosity. The H stands for special additives. It is not as easy to find at PAG 46 but it is available. I wonder how many shops are going to go to all the trouble I went to to find the correct oil. Most likely they are going to go to something like Auto Repair Source and see Honda's part number. They aren't likely to have it in stock so what are they going to do? Are they going to spend the extra time to go to Denso's web site, and then actually read it and see that the Fit uses ND-oil 8 and that this is the same as PAG 46? Are they just going to make a guess. Yes most likely they'll guess PAG 46, but they might guess PAG 100. Will the compressor be damaged by PAG 100? I'm just guessing here, but I think it will probably work fine for at least a couple of years, and then go caput a bit sooner than it would have had it had the correct oil. Maybe last 120,000 miles instead of 220,000. But I'm just guessing. Denso's site claims that "when R1234yf type refrigerant [in the newest Fits] comes in to contact with ND-oil 8 [PAG 46 oil], it will decompose and resin parts of the A/C system will start to deteriorate, so it is never recommended to use ND-oil 8 [PAG 46 oil] in combination with R1234yf type refrigerant [that is in the newest Fits]. Are there actually any resin parts in the AC system? What do they mean when they say "it will decompose." Do they mean the refrigerant will decompose, or the PAG 46 oil will decompose? The sentence is ambiguous. The pronoun it is being used without clarity about which noun it refers to. Regardless, just how bad a thing is this, the decomposition of refrigerant, or the decomposition of oil? And why should decomposition of one of these substances cause resin parts to "start to deteriorate" in the AC system, if there actually are any resin parts. If there are, what kind of "deterioration" is likely to occur, and how bad of a thing is that?

 

Anyone have anything to say about Enviro-Safe 134a replacement refrigerant?