Intake vs altitude etc...
#41
07-10-2012 | 05:22 PM
I had to check on this, because platinum is generally not consumed by anything. Turns out that the platinum is not consumed in an O2 sensor, but damaged by other means:
Normally, the lifetime of an unheated sensor is about 30,000 to 50,000 miles (50,000 to 80,000 km). Heated sensor lifetime is typically 100,000 miles (160,000 km). Failure of an unheated sensor is usually caused by the buildup of soot on the ceramic element, which lengthens its response time and may cause total loss of ability to sense oxygen. For heated sensors, normal deposits are burned off during operation and failure occurs due to catalyst depletion. The probe then tends to report lean mixture, the ECU enriches the mixture, the exhaust gets rich with carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons, and the fuel economy worsens.
Leaded gasoline contaminates the oxygen sensors and catalytic converters. Most oxygen sensors are rated for some service life in the presence of leaded gasoline but sensor life will be shortened to as little as 15,000 miles depending on the lead concentration. Lead-damaged sensors typically have their tips discolored light rusty.
Another common cause of premature failure of lambda probes is contamination of fuel with silicones (used in some sealings and greases) or silicates (used as corrosion inhibitors in some antifreezes). In this case, the deposits on the sensor are colored between shiny white and grainy light gray.
Leaks of oil into the engine may cover the probe tip with an oily black deposit, with associated loss of response.
An overly rich mixture causes buildup of black powdery deposit on the probe. This may be caused by failure of the probe itself, or by a problem elsewhere in the fuel rationing system
Leaded gasoline contaminates the oxygen sensors and catalytic converters. Most oxygen sensors are rated for some service life in the presence of leaded gasoline but sensor life will be shortened to as little as 15,000 miles depending on the lead concentration. Lead-damaged sensors typically have their tips discolored light rusty.
Another common cause of premature failure of lambda probes is contamination of fuel with silicones (used in some sealings and greases) or silicates (used as corrosion inhibitors in some antifreezes). In this case, the deposits on the sensor are colored between shiny white and grainy light gray.
Leaks of oil into the engine may cover the probe tip with an oily black deposit, with associated loss of response.
An overly rich mixture causes buildup of black powdery deposit on the probe. This may be caused by failure of the probe itself, or by a problem elsewhere in the fuel rationing system
That reads like a wikipedia entry..
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 07-10-2012 at 05:27 PM.
#42
07-10-2012 | 05:25 PM
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 154
From: South Carolina
From what I have seen, yes both GE/GD dial back the power.
You can get small increases out of modifications for short periods of time until the ECU gets wise after a couple of drive cycles to the added airflow from complimentary N/A VE mods.
The GE is especially tough to fool, even with a piggy back like the FIC. It can be done though.
Unless you get a Dastek, Emanage, FIC, MegaSquirt, MoTeC unit etc you are throwing money away.
You can get small increases out of modifications for short periods of time until the ECU gets wise after a couple of drive cycles to the added airflow from complimentary N/A VE mods.
The GE is especially tough to fool, even with a piggy back like the FIC. It can be done though.
Unless you get a Dastek, Emanage, FIC, MegaSquirt, MoTeC unit etc you are throwing money away.
#43
07-10-2012 | 05:28 PM
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 154
From: South Carolina
The sensor element is a ceramic cylinder plated inside and out with porous platinum electrodes
It is a little fuel cell:
The zirconium dioxide, or zirconia, lambda sensor is based on a solid-state electrochemical fuel cell called the Nernst cell. Its two electrodes provide an output voltage corresponding to the quantity of oxygen in the exhaust relative to that in the atmosphere
The platinum itself is not consumed, other factors contribute to the sensor's demise.
Last edited by Roger's Fit; 07-10-2012 at 05:31 PM.
#44
07-10-2012 | 05:29 PM
They use a "load factor" like most OEs that is related to cylinder pressure like timing vs. mass O2/cyl/rev
I'm not sure the actual unit the Fit ECUs use. Also important to note the GE and GD ECUs are different.
I'm not sure the actual unit the Fit ECUs use. Also important to note the GE and GD ECUs are different.
#45
07-10-2012 | 05:36 PM
It is.
It is a little fuel cell:
The sensor element is a ceramic cylinder plated inside and out with porous platinum electrodes
It is a little fuel cell:
The zirconium dioxide, or zirconia, lambda sensor is based on a solid-state electrochemical fuel cell called the Nernst cell. Its two electrodes provide an output voltage corresponding to the quantity of oxygen in the exhaust relative to that in the atmosphere
The platinum itself is not consumed, other factors contribute to the sensor's demise.
#47
07-10-2012 | 05:40 PM
Sounds like we're all on the same page then.
Now as far as the ECU.. I am going to be running a Full Standalone in parallel with the stock ECU because I do not currently have the resources to Flash it myself but would like to maintain full dash functions, airbags, A/C, electric powersteering etc.
Though others have already. (For the GD, that is)
Now as far as the ECU.. I am going to be running a Full Standalone in parallel with the stock ECU because I do not currently have the resources to Flash it myself but would like to maintain full dash functions, airbags, A/C, electric powersteering etc.
Though others have already. (For the GD, that is)
#48
07-10-2012 | 05:50 PM
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 154
From: South Carolina
What I think we see here, as I know I viewed this was from an old perspective, we viewed the Fit power mod situation from a time when the ECU did not limit power. It was simply concerned with A/F ratio.
Being that I came back into gasoline with this car from a strictly diesel mindset, this is a change in engine management philosophy that was not apparent to me, and surely, many others.
It would be nice to have an in-house expert from Honda who knows the intracicies of the specific programming for the Fit ECU. Some power could be squeaked out of this ECU with the specifics.
#49
07-10-2012 | 05:56 PM
From all of this, I can infer that the ECU limits power based on a algorithm.
What I think we see here, as I know I viewed this was from an old perspective, we viewed the Fit power mod situation from a time when the ECU did not limit power. It was simply concerned with A/F ratio.
Being that I came back into gasoline with this car from a strictly diesel mindset, this is a change in engine management philosophy that was not apparent to me, and surely, many others.
It would be nice to have an in-house expert from Honda who knows the intracicies of the specific programming for the Fit ECU. Some power could be squeaked out of this ECU with the specifics.
What I think we see here, as I know I viewed this was from an old perspective, we viewed the Fit power mod situation from a time when the ECU did not limit power. It was simply concerned with A/F ratio.
Being that I came back into gasoline with this car from a strictly diesel mindset, this is a change in engine management philosophy that was not apparent to me, and surely, many others.
It would be nice to have an in-house expert from Honda who knows the intracicies of the specific programming for the Fit ECU. Some power could be squeaked out of this ECU with the specifics.
Frankly, until the community speaks with their wallets no one will be coming to provide us with a stock ECU flash option. Let alone end-user flashable which is what we really need.
And for most FF members (like 99%) a piggy back is almost overkill and certainly as much as they will ever need for I/H/E
Once we start to add a cam, boost, a second set of injectors, dual fuel tuning etc you might as well just step up to a full standalone.
Speaking of diesel ... I miss my 5.9 Cummins
Turn up the pump and wait for the coal to become a haze.
Increase fuel again, raise boost watch EGTs... rinse, wipe & repeat.
Where do you guys think I got the idea to run series turbos on one of these little mills?
#50
07-10-2012 | 06:04 PM
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 154
From: South Carolina
I, as you, miss my 5.9 cummins. I sold (a few months ago) my 98 ram 3500 4wd extended cab long bed dually with the ""5.9, 12 valve"". I dropped an ATS diesel transmission in it (stage 3), and was completely dissatisfied. We decided to go small for the next 5 or 6 years left in my military career and until the kids leave, then get a new one with a 5th wheel (got a 2012 jeep Wrangler Unlimited). I will miss the reliability of the old 5.9. Its drone down the highway was the "this thing will never stop even after a nuclear war" siren song it sang well.
I really like the looks of those new Rams.
#51
07-10-2012 | 06:16 PM
I couldn't justify keeping my 12v either. It would not die, sold with over 230k on the clock and an HT60 feeding an HX40.
But damn were fuel mods expensive on that thing. My second hand Scheid 13mm was ~$4k!
I had the chance to pick up a 6.5L K2500 a year or so ago, almost wishing I had now looking back
But damn were fuel mods expensive on that thing. My second hand Scheid 13mm was ~$4k!
I had the chance to pick up a 6.5L K2500 a year or so ago, almost wishing I had now looking back
#52
07-10-2012 | 06:55 PM
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 154
From: South Carolina
You'd be interested in some of the hardware that submarines have. Old ones had a fairbanks model 38 8 1/8 style (1938 design year, 8 1/8" cylinder), 12 cylinder, opposed piston, 720 RPM with a scavenger blower. They were monsters, started with compressed air, no electricity required. They were truly indestructible, 8000 ft/lbs of torque.
Today we use Caterpillar diesels with twin turbochargers, still air start. When they come online, the whistle of the turbo initially spooling up is harmony to a submariner's ears. It means that backup is on the way, after the reactor went down.
I love the sound of air start.
Today we use Caterpillar diesels with twin turbochargers, still air start. When they come online, the whistle of the turbo initially spooling up is harmony to a submariner's ears. It means that backup is on the way, after the reactor went down.
I love the sound of air start.
#53
07-10-2012 | 06:59 PM
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 154
From: South Carolina
Too bad I didn't know you.. That's exactly what i sold: 96 2500 4X4, with the 14 bolt full floater, non EGR. That's when i sold mine also.
#54
07-10-2012 | 10:49 PM
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,371
From: NC USA
Time out.
Horsepower is derived from Torque. Torque is a moment applied to a lever arm. Torque over time is power, in this case converted to units of "Horsepower"
Mass Flow sensors whether its called a MAF or a MAS depending on manufacturers nomenclaturr, just like Nernst cell oxygen sensors, put out a voltage based on the actual MASS of the element oxygen in the stream.
Air is composed of many elements, nitrogen for instance being the greatest proportion per unit volume, but we are concerned with the amount of oxygen available. What are you burning the fuel with, again? Thats right OXYGEN. n2 is 78%, o2 is 22%, and you measure air not oxygen. the amount of o2 is constant.
And Mass measurement is the only reliable way to account for it. Molecular mass for a given volume (engines are volumetric devices, or pumps) does not change as the volume is exposed to environmental factors. What? there are several, one oif which is far more accurate but too costly.
This is why I can pump 85lbs/min or more through a tiny 2.0L engine at only 10k rpm. Its under pressure. Conversely, its the same reason that an NA application would lose power at altitude. Charge density has decreased.
your engine is sucking in 353 cubic ft/minute (pardon my keyboard antics) that weigh 26 lb. I guess you are using supercharging, right, at 47 psi. to pass 85 lb? And only 10k rpm; the bmep is a problem unless you use variable valve characteristics.
The swept volume didnt change, the pressure at which the air was introduced did. The engine can only ingest so much volume at a given point, but we can change the density. So what? for what purpose?
You can change density onlky by forced induction or changing from air to another substance, none of which is involved with ECU control of engine operation.
Why do you think injectors are typically listed in (lbs/hr) when rated on gas? When you see them listed in cc/min they are using a spec fluid on the injector test bench at a fixed temperature and increments of pressure (~43.5PSIg or 3bar is industry standard), and that spec fluid has a known specific density.
Injectors are rated both in cc/stroke and in lb/hr at a specified cycle rate. that has no effect on the purpose; the designer merely chooses the one most convenient. Whats your point?
Please tell me this concept is not foreign to you, speaking of density.
Density is well familiar; again whats yoiur point? It does seem to do anything for your argument, if there is one. You have no idea of the relationship of thed terminology you're using with reality.
Additionally, OEs do in fact calibrate for torque ask folks like Greg Banish who is a Calibrator for Ford and who's lectures I have attended. Calibrate torque? For what? Nonsense.
Spark Angle Advance/Retard is directly related to cylinder pressure and BMEP, which is what will determine torque.
Cylinder pressure, BMEP, and power are the result of fuel injected and timing, all of whicvh precede those mesurements.
In no way will you caus damage by limiting torque as a fail-safe through timing retard, but you might increase your EGTs. EGT?
Appardsntly you are saying you will limit torque by limiting power; thats a result of leaning out the fuel. By backing off on injection there will be a lean condition which will indeed causes damage to valves and pistons. Retarding timing enough and there will be damage; engines don't like to fire when the pistons are halfway down the power stroke, especially crankshafts.
Please note that if those EGTs get to the point there is damage sustained.. like melted exhaust valves, burned seats or damaged turbine wheels... you have bigger problems in the tune then the spark timing. Yes, mostly errant programming.
You seriously don't understand what it means to shift the power band to the right? As viewed on a two dimensional plot (like say a dyno plot?), the quadrant of a graph around the origin (X0,Y0) where both Values of X and Y are always positive is going to be on the right hand side. You think changing the x and y cords is anything?
So If you made peak power on the stock setup at coordinate +X1,+Y1 and then switch to an intake that caters toward the upper end of the rev range peak power will shift up and to the right side of the plot (further away from the origin X0,Y0) towards +X2,+Y2.. Nonsensense.
Before you criticize my post you may want to go back to the basics.
I wsrote the basics;
youi may have used one of mny textbooks if indeed you have any technical background at all.
Also try some simple formatting and sentence breaks, that block of text is damn near unintelligible.
Yeah, when you get to be 75 and have an errant keyboard, there can be illedgible words, but the science is there with 50 years of experience which you obviously don't have. You may use lots of very technical words but its obvious you don't have a clue what they really mean.
As for your closing statement.. the handy thing about the english language is that you can describe the same concept in multiple ways.
FYI a "cubit" and the term "cubic" are two entirely different items if we are going to play the pedantic game. Errant keyboard, not biblical measurements but the meaning is clear.
Clarification provided. I'm not even going to bother going any further with VE or the dynamics of compressible fluids if we cannot get over these little speed bumps.
Horsepower is derived from Torque. Torque is a moment applied to a lever arm. Torque over time is power, in this case converted to units of "Horsepower"
Mass Flow sensors whether its called a MAF or a MAS depending on manufacturers nomenclaturr, just like Nernst cell oxygen sensors, put out a voltage based on the actual MASS of the element oxygen in the stream.
Air is composed of many elements, nitrogen for instance being the greatest proportion per unit volume, but we are concerned with the amount of oxygen available. What are you burning the fuel with, again? Thats right OXYGEN. n2 is 78%, o2 is 22%, and you measure air not oxygen. the amount of o2 is constant.
And Mass measurement is the only reliable way to account for it. Molecular mass for a given volume (engines are volumetric devices, or pumps) does not change as the volume is exposed to environmental factors. What? there are several, one oif which is far more accurate but too costly.
This is why I can pump 85lbs/min or more through a tiny 2.0L engine at only 10k rpm. Its under pressure. Conversely, its the same reason that an NA application would lose power at altitude. Charge density has decreased.
your engine is sucking in 353 cubic ft/minute (pardon my keyboard antics) that weigh 26 lb. I guess you are using supercharging, right, at 47 psi. to pass 85 lb? And only 10k rpm; the bmep is a problem unless you use variable valve characteristics.
The swept volume didnt change, the pressure at which the air was introduced did. The engine can only ingest so much volume at a given point, but we can change the density. So what? for what purpose?
You can change density onlky by forced induction or changing from air to another substance, none of which is involved with ECU control of engine operation.
Why do you think injectors are typically listed in (lbs/hr) when rated on gas? When you see them listed in cc/min they are using a spec fluid on the injector test bench at a fixed temperature and increments of pressure (~43.5PSIg or 3bar is industry standard), and that spec fluid has a known specific density.
Injectors are rated both in cc/stroke and in lb/hr at a specified cycle rate. that has no effect on the purpose; the designer merely chooses the one most convenient. Whats your point?
Please tell me this concept is not foreign to you, speaking of density.
Density is well familiar; again whats yoiur point? It does seem to do anything for your argument, if there is one. You have no idea of the relationship of thed terminology you're using with reality.
Additionally, OEs do in fact calibrate for torque ask folks like Greg Banish who is a Calibrator for Ford and who's lectures I have attended. Calibrate torque? For what? Nonsense.
Spark Angle Advance/Retard is directly related to cylinder pressure and BMEP, which is what will determine torque.
Cylinder pressure, BMEP, and power are the result of fuel injected and timing, all of whicvh precede those mesurements.
In no way will you caus damage by limiting torque as a fail-safe through timing retard, but you might increase your EGTs. EGT?
Appardsntly you are saying you will limit torque by limiting power; thats a result of leaning out the fuel. By backing off on injection there will be a lean condition which will indeed causes damage to valves and pistons. Retarding timing enough and there will be damage; engines don't like to fire when the pistons are halfway down the power stroke, especially crankshafts.
Please note that if those EGTs get to the point there is damage sustained.. like melted exhaust valves, burned seats or damaged turbine wheels... you have bigger problems in the tune then the spark timing. Yes, mostly errant programming.
You seriously don't understand what it means to shift the power band to the right? As viewed on a two dimensional plot (like say a dyno plot?), the quadrant of a graph around the origin (X0,Y0) where both Values of X and Y are always positive is going to be on the right hand side. You think changing the x and y cords is anything?
So If you made peak power on the stock setup at coordinate +X1,+Y1 and then switch to an intake that caters toward the upper end of the rev range peak power will shift up and to the right side of the plot (further away from the origin X0,Y0) towards +X2,+Y2.. Nonsensense.
Before you criticize my post you may want to go back to the basics.
I wsrote the basics;
youi may have used one of mny textbooks if indeed you have any technical background at all.
Also try some simple formatting and sentence breaks, that block of text is damn near unintelligible.
Yeah, when you get to be 75 and have an errant keyboard, there can be illedgible words, but the science is there with 50 years of experience which you obviously don't have. You may use lots of very technical words but its obvious you don't have a clue what they really mean.
As for your closing statement.. the handy thing about the english language is that you can describe the same concept in multiple ways.
FYI a "cubit" and the term "cubic" are two entirely different items if we are going to play the pedantic game. Errant keyboard, not biblical measurements but the meaning is clear.
Clarification provided. I'm not even going to bother going any further with VE or the dynamics of compressible fluids if we cannot get over these little speed bumps.
Clarification not provided until you explain how the computer works to control a 4 cycle engined and why the aftermarket intakes don't offer much for thed money they charge.
You are trying to vastly complicate a very simple process.
MAF do NOT measure oxygen content, only total air flow and no way comes up with oxygen content. And the ECU has no reason to know.
The amount of o2 and n2 is virtually constant as the contaminants are infinitesimal.
I'm quite familiar with horsepower and torque but I'm still waiting to heasr how 'limiting torque' accomplishes anything. Especially coimpared to cutting off ignition.
#55
07-10-2012 | 11:47 PM
Thread Starter
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 102
From: Las Vegas
Ok here is a question.
Aftermarket intakes show improvements on the dyno of roughly 5hp on the Fit.
What does the ECU do to remove that gain as people here say?
Also, would that be true for people who are at altitude?
Aftermarket intakes show improvements on the dyno of roughly 5hp on the Fit.
What does the ECU do to remove that gain as people here say?
Also, would that be true for people who are at altitude?
#56
07-10-2012 | 11:52 PM
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
A stock Honda is about 88 percent VE. So about 12 percent or 13 total HP in stock form is able to had with up grades in intake, cams and exhaust. The MAF basically reads the air and make simple fuel adjustments based on the air entered. Map is the VE tables and the O2, and intake and engine temps make final fuel corrections. You need to read flash pro help file because it explains it all. Tuning mass flow fuel
That is why fuel density is so important to use more compression making the engine more efficient. Since there is no cam phasing adjustment and the ecu can adjust 15-20 percent there is no need for a controller in N/A form.
That is why fuel density is so important to use more compression making the engine more efficient. Since there is no cam phasing adjustment and the ecu can adjust 15-20 percent there is no need for a controller in N/A form.
#57
07-10-2012 | 11:59 PM
Okay, we'll break out the crayons:
What do you burn fuel with? 'Cuz its not Nitrogen.
The amount of power potential an engine has is directly dependent on how much oxygen you can supply.
If you have total air mass entering the motor and you have constant proportion of oxygen.. you also have the oxygen mass for that now metered volume. That is basic Junior Year of HS Stoichiometry.
Torque is derived from Horsepower, I don't know how you would have written a book and have now gotten this relation ship backwards multiple times. Also, something from good old HS Physics
Spark Timing, as in where the plug fires and then the flame front begins in relationship to TDC, determines where cylinder pressure ramps up, peaks and falls off. The rate at which the flame front propagates and pressure builds is dependent on the fuel.
Knowing all this you can control torque.
Rod and crank angle, along with cylinder pressure determine instantaneous torque. This is I suppose a combination of said HS Chem/Phys lessons.
If you pull timing, like the ECU does when it picks up frequencies identified as knock (knock retard) you are cutting pressure in the combustion chamber to avoid a spike.
You can also do this as a form of traction control or to limit stress on parts, which most OEMs do.
Ignition cut and pulling timing are two different things. Leaning out the mixture to control power is a great way to start melting parts and/or detonating. Pulling timing on the order of 1-15* is a great way to rein torque in as a fail-safe, which is precisely what many ECUs do.
To further illustrate what shifting the power curve means.. heres an example:
If you use a big plenum short runner intake manifold vs. stock that increases peak power as well as the rpm range it comes in... you will have moved the power band up the rpm range. This is what is referred to as shifting power curve up and to the right.
Because typically this sort of measurement is made on a dyno, which creates an X v. Y plot of Power/Torque vs. RPM or Wheel speed depending on Dyno Manufacturer.
I sure hope someone is entertained, because I am appalled that with alleged text books published and 50 years experience.. this is a mystery.
What do you burn fuel with? 'Cuz its not Nitrogen.
The amount of power potential an engine has is directly dependent on how much oxygen you can supply.
If you have total air mass entering the motor and you have constant proportion of oxygen.. you also have the oxygen mass for that now metered volume. That is basic Junior Year of HS Stoichiometry.
Torque is derived from Horsepower, I don't know how you would have written a book and have now gotten this relation ship backwards multiple times. Also, something from good old HS Physics
Spark Timing, as in where the plug fires and then the flame front begins in relationship to TDC, determines where cylinder pressure ramps up, peaks and falls off. The rate at which the flame front propagates and pressure builds is dependent on the fuel.
Knowing all this you can control torque.
Rod and crank angle, along with cylinder pressure determine instantaneous torque. This is I suppose a combination of said HS Chem/Phys lessons.
If you pull timing, like the ECU does when it picks up frequencies identified as knock (knock retard) you are cutting pressure in the combustion chamber to avoid a spike.
You can also do this as a form of traction control or to limit stress on parts, which most OEMs do.
Ignition cut and pulling timing are two different things. Leaning out the mixture to control power is a great way to start melting parts and/or detonating. Pulling timing on the order of 1-15* is a great way to rein torque in as a fail-safe, which is precisely what many ECUs do.
To further illustrate what shifting the power curve means.. heres an example:
If you use a big plenum short runner intake manifold vs. stock that increases peak power as well as the rpm range it comes in... you will have moved the power band up the rpm range. This is what is referred to as shifting power curve up and to the right.
Because typically this sort of measurement is made on a dyno, which creates an X v. Y plot of Power/Torque vs. RPM or Wheel speed depending on Dyno Manufacturer.
I sure hope someone is entertained, because I am appalled that with alleged text books published and 50 years experience.. this is a mystery.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 07-11-2012 at 12:27 AM.
#58
07-11-2012 | 12:06 AM
So basically the burn is slowed and cooled with excess fuel, the burn is started later and there is less air admitted to the plenum and what does make it in is at lower pressure than ambient conditions.
At altitude this is unnecessary on a stock Fit, as you will not reach the parameters it determines to be excessive, because there is not enough oxygen to create the power in the first place.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 07-11-2012 at 12:29 AM.
#59
07-11-2012 | 12:23 AM
Thread Starter
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 102
From: Las Vegas
The ECU pulls timing, enriches the mixture and starts to shut the throttle plate.
At altitude this is unnecessary on a stock Fit, as you will not reach the parameters it determines to be excessive, because there is not enough oxygen to create the power in the first place.
At altitude this is unnecessary on a stock Fit, as you will not reach the parameters it determines to be excessive, because there is not enough oxygen to create the power in the first place.
Besides a stand alone does anyone provide an override to this throttle issue?
#60
07-11-2012 | 12:35 AM
Its a survival mechanism the engineers put in place. Mostly because of what would occur, especially at sea level with significant VE mods @ WOT where the car enters open loop and tries to run on the stock Fuel, Spark and VE tables.
More air than expected would create a lean condition at high rpm under full load using the stock timing curve which is pretty aggresive. This would be ripe for knock/detonation.
As far as gains.. Gain from what..?
The intake pipe from the first post? No, because the stock air box is not a restriction. It has low pressure delta so pumping losses are low.. but it also helps keep charge velocity up throughout the low end and midrange.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 07-11-2012 at 12:41 AM.