Look back at the Si over the years offered in the States, what model was about performance really? The early models that so many are clamoring for Honda to go back to were not really performance models whatsoever, sure they offered DW sussy up front, but what else? Not until the CR-X DelSol with the B16 had arrived was there some sort of performance model. The D16 powered Si should be a joke really for one that is talking about performance (power) from the showroom. Finally the EM2 Si was offered there, but unfortunately never in a hatch, just a snorefest coupe. The model that followed the EP3 Si, back to a hatch, but with a watered down K. Then another Civic was released with a decent K but again to a coupe and then another step backwards with a watered down K24. I guess the main reason for that, the "mass"es of people need the extra torque to get going.

Any car can be about performance, it comes down to the owner. I know I am in the minority on this site concerning how my Fit is setup and driven, but for you to say the Fit is not about performance in any way, I just have to smirk and say you are the one who has lost the way or not really a proper driver and must rely on power to make up for your inefficiency behind the wheel. It's funny you say it is not about performance, yet a whole new level of racing was setup and the Fit chassis is in that segment. Yes it doesn't have a metric-ton of power, but mine always puts a smile on my face when I get to push it hard.

So what really constitutes performance? Do you really need a bunch of power in order to feel like you have performance? If so, then what is your argument about Honda losing its way actually stem from? What car has Honda released for public consumption that has had huge power numbers? Jeopardy theme playing in the background...Alex I will take NEVER for $800.

 

He would rather Honda make one of these

 

 

D16z6 made more power than the L15, with 7200 redline. Twenty years ago. Don't be calling the dirty D a joke, man

Just havin' fun.

 

haha, I said it should be a joke for somebody that seems to equate performance to power numbers.

 

B.s b.s b.s

 

Depends on where you are. In Europe it is a combination of handling and power, with handling seemingly more important. In the US, it is more about power. I happen to like both, with an edge to power. The Fit handles great, just can't out accelerate the local ice cream truck. My Camaro can blow the doors off most things out there, can stop well, but turn? By old standards, it turns pretty well, but compared to the Mustang, not so good. The definition of performance, depends on a lot of stuff. Again Why didn't they make the CR-Z perform like it looks?

 

No, it's not. But...They are few and far between, and while I would have one if offered, it does not stand out among its contemporaries. Styling is nice, but pretty much standard Civic. Compare that to some of the Subaru's. Do you think a stock Si could hold a candle to one of the turbo Subaru's? Read Lutz's book "Car Guys vs The Bean Counters". While he goes off on a bender once in a while in the book, he pretty much nails it for the industry. He is the one who brought Caddy back, was bringing Pontiac back and Chevy. Guy knows his stuff.
Honda is where GM was around 1990. Same attitude. Same boring boats for the most part.

 

I have read that book.

And Honda is nowhere near that, Honda still has some of the best QUALITY/Reliability on the market, GM made some real lemons. Honda isn't working to out cheap the other cars on the market. Nor are they depending on a share of the market that could soon burst (Trucks/SUV's).

Lutz is also the guy that pushed so hard for the Volt, the XLR, etc. And we all know how those worked out

 

Maybe saddled with the autotragic the ice cream man pulls away. Once again I'll stand out to the side, but over here, people are always in my way, be it on the expressway or everyday roads.

I have said previously and will always say so, I wish Honda would have released a Fit with about 150ps, 30ps more from the factory would do wonders for the Fit, but I also wish it would come from the factory at about 975kg and not the 1050kg, weighs even more over there if I am not mistaken. Still wouldn't be a rocket by any stretch of the imagination, but it would be welcomed when out on circuit, I might put even more distance between my Fit and some 2R Integras I have been on circuit with.

 

Doesn't have to be a Camaro like rocket, just enough power to make it accelerate like it should. 150 hp would make it a lot of fun. Also, put that same 150- 200hp in the CR-Z. It would sell like hotcakes if they kept the price in reach. And give Honda a sporting reputation again.

 

Lutz wasn't perfect. He made some bad calls, and he admits it. The Volt was a waste of millions. He increased quality, and brought sporty cars back to GM. Honda quality is obviously still good, but cheaper materials are creaping in, and for a company that built its reputation on quality and fun to drive...that is not good

 

I Know my car is a little bit different than most other 2007 GD3s but it is still just a GD3... The first time I went to Dallas in it after upgrading the KWSC base kit to the high boost kit I had a guy in a RSX start messing with me.. I humiliated him badly 3 times in a row.. A few weeks later I'm on my way back from Dallas driving at 55MPH in the right lane when a brand new 2010 Mustang GT convertible slows down by downshifting right beside me revs his engine and takes off.. He changed into a higher gear and I realized that I could clean his clock... In the next 6 or 8 miles slowing to 50 side by side and having at it In took him 3 out of 3 times and on the top end... Not every Fit isn't capable of going fast but some of us have surprised a few people big time with our little baby minivans.... It is in the process of becoming a little wilder about every time I find a way to do something that will add more power....

 

Here is one little fact to ponder...

Honda is the only major automaker to have never had an annual loss.

That even with the natural disasters it faced in 2011, it still turned a profit is quite remarkable. Yes they have gone a bit cheap on materials as far as interior is concerned I guess over there, they read way too much into the financial crisis and thought it would be worse than it was...rather is. They may have been like most things though, ahead of the curve and predicted chaos too soon.

A new guy was placed in charge in NA, he has been with the company for 30 years and he is not a bean counter type. Will he be able to win over the bean counters; in 2004 he did with the Acura TL, it almost wasn't green-lighted, but he fought and eventually won and the car ended up being the #1 sold car in the luxo market for the year. He is not happy with where Honda is sitting and wants it to return to being leaders in the market in all aspects.

So as I said, there are many within the company, the engineers that want the freedom to be just that engineers and take chances. Honda's bean counters just needs to remember Soichiro's famous words (paraphrased) "99% failure breeds 1% success". Essentially don't rest on your laurels and keep pushing to better yourself always, even if you fail while trying, at least you tried and learn from your mistakes and keep looking forward. And remember that Honda was started essentially from nothing but dreams and failed attempts at selling piston rings to the Toyoda family for its cars. Toyoda family gave no praise or chance to Honda as he came from a family with no wealth and he was beneath them and they didn't want their products to be supplied by "inferior" individuals. To this day, why I will never own a Toyboat product no matter how good it may be. I'm weird like that.

Again, I will only ever say Honda lost its way when they no longer race in any sort of series. Something else Soichiro spoke of, without racing there is no Honda. There will be total anarchy within Honda's walls if the bean counters ever force racing out of the business model of Honda. I myself will come to the point of total disgust with the company as they would have then tarnished Soichiro's great family name.

 

555: he will never understand it. anybody who never driven a car in asian roads will never understand why a car don't need a 400hp engine to be exciting.

 

Doesn't matter what they sell elsewhere. It matters here, what they sell here. Our needs and desires are as different from yours as yours are from ours. That said, here is hoping the car guys send the bean counters packing. Or at least out of the decision making positions. They should be in the bean plant, packing Green Giant cans. (Don't know if you have Green Giant there, but it is a huge food company here.)
No, I have never driven Japanese roads. have driven in Ireland, where the roads are 1 1/2 lanes wide, and you usually can't get over 45 mph.
In that kind of area, power doesn't matter. size and handling does. here in Arizona, we have 120 mile straights and 75 mph speed limit, soon to be 85 mph. Power matters here. ( and the fun of the twisties)

 

85 mph speed limits? THAT'S JUST STUPID.

Wastes more gas and allows the awful drivers that call America home to reach even higher speeds while eating/texting/reading/doing their hair.

I will never understand anyone who claims they need huge power for driving on the streets. I've driven a C5 Vette and to be frank, driving a fast car in a straight line on a public road sucks.

*Hits gas, shifts once, WELP, I'm now speeding*

 

I think the most interesting point raised in this thread so far is by 555sexydrive regarding the fact that Honda's si badge never indicated a level of performance that was anything to write home about (the magazines loved these things, which helped.) That goes for the whole company. None of their flagship models have ever bested the performance of their competition's same efforts when it comes to straight line speed, and probably even lap times. The NSX is irrelevant to Honda discussions, as much as people would like for it to be. It was appreciated for its price and reliability, much like the GT-R is today (but completely different animals.)

I remember when these lamented cars from the "Honda of Old" were actually the hot thing, and what it felt like to be in the market. First thing is, there were not very many options in the States. The disparity in reliability steered, so to speak, people's decisions much more than now. The reliability and quality aspect were ALWAYS the reasons Hondas had appeal, and it wasn't even that strong. At meets in the 90s, there were just as many people in every other brand of import.

So, if the reliability/quality thing is completely gone, then Honda has indeed lost its way. Everything else I want to say has been said by 555 (and others), who can evaluate the business side of things, and appreciate the qualitative aspect of driving.

Also, since this thread has gotten so out of control, I'd like to make a comment from a psychological perspective about trolling. Sometimes people need to take a step back and examine what they are really mad about. Bashing your car, or Honda, or America, or other forum members in an anonymous environment is really like striking at a mirror.

 

Of course you would think it was stupid. You live in the land of the nanny state. Good suggestion: Stay there where you can. be cared for.
We don't need you here, or your way of thinking.

 

Today, I saw my first Scion FR-S. Now THAT is what I am talking about. Rear drive, 6-speed, great body and 200 hp. Honda needs to pay attention. Not the fastest on the block, but a load of fun, handling, styling and quality. Perfect example.