I thought so, I've seen different papers and it seems they are trying to make this engine capable of running different fuels. Some of them have spark plugs and internal and external EGR systems.

Running that lean and with all that heat the motors cant last that long. I might be wrong but it seems to be a few years before the reliability is going to make it worth it.

 

Direct Injection Fouls Some Early Adopters - AutoObserver

Note that not all DI engines have a problem.

 

There is lots of good info in that link. I do not think Honda has a carbon issue but the symptoms.

Quote (The document describes these deposits as a sticky coating of oil and fuel constituents that, once formed, serves as a base for further deposits, creating “a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases.” Excessive carbon deposits “have extremely negative effects,” the patent application concludes, citing significant performance losses, sporadic ignition failures and, potentially, holes burned in the structure of the catalytic converter (should bits of carbon break from the valves and pass though the combustion chamber).Quote from Link

That pretty much describes all the problems people are having on this forum.

Good find and not necessarily related to Direct Injection.

 

"Chick reached his conclusion after inspecting dozens of different DI engines at his shop and finding some, like the V8 in Boyadjiev’s Audi RS 4, regularly choked with carbon while others, like the DI version of Porsche’s horizontally opposed 6-cylinder, remained much cleaner.

If he’s right, the rapid adoption of DI has actually illuminated an issue, not caused one. A “dirty” intake or exhaust-recirculation design can easily go undetected in a conventional port-injected engine due to the cleaning effect of gasoline passing over the intake valves. When the same engine designs are adapted to direct-injection fueling, however, that cleaning effect is suddenly lost – and the carbon layers can build."

So, DI itself is not bad, just blamed for other poorly designed aspects of the engine, that were already there.

I think by extension, that if an engine is fully designed for DI, it will be fine. Not just DI added to a current design, as seems some of the cases are. Reminds me of the Oldsmobile diesels of the 1980's.

 

I am going to spend more time reading all the links in this thread. The point about carbon on the valves can be a problem with Honda especially if you do not rev past 3500 to open the 4th intake valve. It was interesting that carbon deposits produced the same problems like ignition problems, bad mpg and power.

DI and lean mixtures produce lots of heat so carbon caused by heat soak is common. It also clogs the EGR system too. They might use a system like water injection and DEF to clean the motor and exhaust.

My truck at work has problems like unexplained oil consumption, Hot running motor and white smoke some times blamed on EGR. No coolant leak except for overheating. Fuel gets sprayed into the muffler to burn off the carbon and the mpg is lower. I blame these problems on lean mixtures and the wasted fuel to solve the carbon issue. I know its a diesel motor but it goes to DI and a high compression motor running lean with the new fuels. I got better mpg with the older fuel.

Olds diesel wasn't it a 350 with higher compression. I was not into different engines at that time except a'79 350 Z28 that I could build in my head. I still know the parts and how we took a 175 Hp motor to 300 the same Hp of the fuel injected Z28 in the middle 90s.

 

Coming from a Mazdaspeed 3 I echo these sentiments. The Speeds are known for excessive carbon buildup due to running so rich. Cleaning the EGR valve and exhaust tip, as well as using Seafoam are considered routine maintenance. It's great technology, but it has its drawbacks: There's a lot to love about the simplicity of the Fit.

 

Honda Unveils Next-Generation "Earth Dreams Technology" Engines

Honda has chosen the 2011 Tokyo Motor Show to release the details about its next-generation technology called "Earth Dreams Technology." The new technology is set to greatly enhance both driving performance in addition to fuel efficiency. Honda hopes this new technology will help it achieve top-of-industry fuel efficiency for every category within three years.
A wide range of engines including the 660cc, 1.3L, 1.5L, 1.8L, 2.0L, 2.4L, and 3.5L will feature the new technology, which includes an enhanced VTEC system, direct-injection technology and the Atkinson cycle. A new downsized diesel engine is also part of the plan as well as new CVT transmissions that will be used by mini, compact and mid-size vehicles. A two-motor hybrid system a high-output 120kW motor that features three driving modes and a high efficiency electric powertrain for all-electric models are also being developed.

According to the Automotive News here are some of the preliminary specs, which are likely understated:
- The 3.5L V6 will pack 310 horsepower and 265 lb-ft. of torque, up 30 horsepower and 11 lb-ft. in the current Acura TL.
- The 2.4L four-cylinder will have 181 horsepower and 177 lb-ft. of torque. It will be the base engine in the all-new 2013 Accord that is expected to debut next spring.
- The 1.8L four-cylinder will have 148 horsepower and 133 lb-ft. of torque, which could debut as early as 2013 in the refreshed Civic.
-The 1.5L four-cylinder will get upgraded to 127 horsepower and 111 lb-ft. of torque and used by the Fit.
- A 1.6L turbodiesel will have power that is similar to the current 2.2L diesel, but will have better fuel economy.

 

It's about time.

 

Thanks for the laugh!

 

Honda deserves the negative press they have been getting lately for staying stuck on technology from over a decade ago. Seriously. The DC2 Type R was making almost 200 HP in 1995. How many ponies does the Si make? About 200. It's been over 16 years.

 

Blame emissions, insurance and the customers.

Also, even with an advantage of almost 90HP SAE at the crank, more displacement and a higher redline, smaller front cross-section and looser emissions requirement the DC2-R just outruns a stock 2008 Fit MT to 60mph. Something like 7.0 (DC2) vs. 8.3sec (GD3).

The newer cars are better able to use what power they make, in most instances at least.

 

No Hondas were ever made to beat cars on a straight line. The NSX was slower then an R32 in a straight line. The R32 wasn't really pushing 280hp, even though it reflected it in its stats due to that gentleman's agreement. But Hondas have been proven to run faster lap times that other vehicles with more power, which is the beauty of them in my opinion.

Just look at the FD2 Type R and see the list of cars it's actually faster than at Tsukuba. Hell, it's even faster than a stock R34 at Suzuka, even with the big difference in power and technology. Straight line performance does not define a Honda.

 

I never said that. But way to move the goalposts... Straight line performance however is directly related to power production.

You complained about the power output.

The example posed illustrates the advances in chassis and drivetrain which let them hit the track so hard. That is what Honda has focused on. Except for us getting the shaft in the form of that stupid rear twist beam instead of IRS.

 

Yes. I agree. Point taking.