3.8 Qts. but why dipstick shows Low Oil?
#81
The first paper shows yes there is a difference between synthetics if the is no friction modifiers in the engine but it also shows that with friction modifiers that most new motors have to help meet mpg the benefit is less or not at all. The viscosity or weight is more important.
I respect your observation that oil consumption increased in your car, and mpg reduced, for the period that you used synthetic oil.
#82
In the early days of synthetic oil there were a lot of complaints from people that had problems from oil leaks.. I have no idea where I read that the problem was solved by adding regular mineral oil to the synthetic to solve the problem but I do know it was on a site that sold synthetic oil. They also said there is no longer a 100% synthetic oil being sold for automotive use... I need to say that the worse case of valve stem leakage I have ever seen was on a Honda 4 valve single cylinder XR 350 dirt bike that I raced on in the 80s... Other guys that rode and worked on 4 stroke Hondas all told me that they had problems with them also to the extent that the enclosed cam chain would not receive enough oil to stay lubricated and would wear out... We weren't even using synthetic oil in those things back then... I got hooked on Amsoil when I was riding a Harley that I was always tearing down and throwing $100 bills into so I could keep up with younger guys riding Hondas... The inside of that engine never had any kind of buildup discoloration or scoring like every other Harley I had been into seemed to always had and was considered normal.. I had to go to 10W30 Mobile1 to see if it would eliminate oil blow by when on full boost and it did help a lot... I think that the oil was bringing down the octane of the air fuel mixture since I am getting quite a bit more ignition advance and the exhaust fumes no longer reek of unburned gasoline as they had before... Also the fuel mileage is much better, there is more power and the CEL stays off most of the time unless I have to drive in heavy traffic on very hot days.
#83
Nonsense.We've been buiding Honda engines since 1976 and sometimes wiuth Honda engineers. Spurs do not exist on Honda valve shafts thanks to the way they are made and machined and polished.
Anytime the valve seals fail there will be oil passing into the cylinder. And yes, synthetics can easily weep more oil past a failed seal but their lubricant qualities will also more likely protect the seal from failing, usually due to friction from lesser lubricants.
Moly coated piston rings and skirts have very little to do with engine lubrication; more to aid the wearing in of the rings and cylinder walls for long life and smooth faces to aid lubrication.
Good synthetics indeed show higher hp and mpg due to less friction. And longer life before losing viscosity and shear strength, the backbones of internal combustion engine lubrication.
Anytime the valve seals fail there will be oil passing into the cylinder. And yes, synthetics can easily weep more oil past a failed seal but their lubricant qualities will also more likely protect the seal from failing, usually due to friction from lesser lubricants.
Moly coated piston rings and skirts have very little to do with engine lubrication; more to aid the wearing in of the rings and cylinder walls for long life and smooth faces to aid lubrication.
Good synthetics indeed show higher hp and mpg due to less friction. And longer life before losing viscosity and shear strength, the backbones of internal combustion engine lubrication.
Moly tests is a subject to interpretation but they would not have a paper that says what it does if it is not true. There was a time that moly was the cause of sludge but that is old news.
Last edited by SilverBullet; 07-03-2011 at 01:13 AM.
#84
I just did mine last week, I used the oil drain bolt with the car tilting back so as much oil could be drained as possible. I also replaced the filter so all the oil was removed as well. I put in a full 4 quarts. I checked the level today a week later and it read just at the maximum level dot.
#85
Mr. Mahout, I have a lot of respect for you but I have to disagree on the some of the cars with bad seals. Usually when you build a motor your using the best parts. Bad valve seals or valves is like the coil problems but it depends on what you do.
Moly tests is a subject to interpretation but they would not have a paper that says what it does if it is not true. There was a time that moly was the cause of sludge but that is old news.
Moly tests is a subject to interpretation but they would not have a paper that says what it does if it is not true. There was a time that moly was the cause of sludge but that is old news.
I have no idea what your disagreeing with but I will offer one piece of advice:
Aways check the source of a proposal; if they stand to benefit from the presentation back up and investigate very carefully and thoroughly.
#86
I agree and usually do investigate. I have had problems running synthetic oil with oil consumption in my last 2 Honda's and 1 van I still have. Talking to Tuners the first thing they do is replace the oil seals and valves before they add power boosters. Most people its just a nuisance but never gets bad enough to be considered a problem but that dont mean there is not a problem. Most conventional oil has synthetic parts added to it. So far 2 oil changes on dealer oil and no oil consumption at 19000 miles.
Moly pistons http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/032008_07.pdf
#87
I agree and usually do investigate. I have had problems running synthetic oil with oil consumption in my last 2 Honda's and 1 van I still have. Talking to Tuners the first thing they do is replace the oil seals and valves before they add power boosters. Most people its just a nuisance but never gets bad enough to be considered a problem but that dont mean there is not a problem. Most conventional oil has synthetic parts added to it. So far 2 oil changes on dealer oil and no oil consumption at 19000 miles.
Moly pistons http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/032008_07.pdf
Moly pistons http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/032008_07.pdf
I'm curious about 2 things:
1. how did you break-in your engines?
2. whose synthetic oil did you use?
There's been more than a hundred Hondas here over 34 years and only those with high mileage had oil leakage past seals; some did past damaged rings. Almost all ran on Mobil 1. I can make the same claim about Toyotas, Nissans, and Mitsubishi as well. Even Suzuki.
Any time you go with forced induction we use Viton seals for the high temperature capability. Yes, costly, but virtually foolproof in high temp and rpm.
As for anti-friction and anti-wear coatings on pistons they are more ceramics than simple molybdenum sulfide suspended in various fluids. They've been used in NASCAR and virtually all racing for decades. F1 is probably the most advanced tho NASCAR won't be far behind. I've long held that duPont's sponsorship of Hendrick was a sure path to better antifriction lubricants and surface polishes (think different polishes drivers and 'passenger's sides could make a difference? its a vertical wing and faster velocity creates negative pressure and don't think todays F1 and NASCAR teams haven't worked on that.)
We send any parts that we are preping for competition out to people that are skilled in that process. They won't let you in on their formulations for proprietary reasons so I haven't verified their components but I don't expect molybdenum sulfide to be the only anti-friction component. Or if its there at all. Take a look at one of those pistons or cylinder head coatings (mostly anti-heat transfer types) with a magnifying glass. Interesting. See any visible particulates?
Last edited by mahout; 07-05-2011 at 08:31 AM.
#88
I'm curious about 2 things:
1. how did you break-in your engines?
2. whose synthetic oil did you use?
There's been more than a hundred Hondas here over 34 years and only those with high mileage had oil leakage past seals; some did past damaged rings. Almost all ran on Mobil 1. I can make the same claim about Toyotas, Nissans, and Mitsubishi as well. Even Suzuki.
Any time you go with forced induction we use Viton seals for the high temperature capability. Yes, costly, but virtually foolproof in high temp and rpm.
As for anti-friction and anti-wear coatings on pistons they are more ceramics than simple molybdenum sulfide suspended in various fluids. They've been used in NASCAR and virtually all racing for decades. F1 is probably the most advanced tho NASCAR won't be far behind. I've long held that duPont's sponsorship of Hendrick was a sure path to better antifriction lubricants and surface polishes (think different polishes drivers and 'passenger's sides could make a difference? its a vertical wing and faster velocity creates negative pressure and don't think todays F1 and NASCAR teams haven't worked on that.)
We send any parts that we are preping for competition out to people that are skilled in that process. They won't let you in on their formulations for proprietary reasons so I haven't verified their components but I don't expect molybdenum sulfide to be the only anti-friction component. Or if its there at all. Take a look at one of those pistons or cylinder head coatings (mostly anti-heat transfer types) with a magnifying glass. Interesting. See any visible particulates?
1. how did you break-in your engines?
2. whose synthetic oil did you use?
There's been more than a hundred Hondas here over 34 years and only those with high mileage had oil leakage past seals; some did past damaged rings. Almost all ran on Mobil 1. I can make the same claim about Toyotas, Nissans, and Mitsubishi as well. Even Suzuki.
Any time you go with forced induction we use Viton seals for the high temperature capability. Yes, costly, but virtually foolproof in high temp and rpm.
As for anti-friction and anti-wear coatings on pistons they are more ceramics than simple molybdenum sulfide suspended in various fluids. They've been used in NASCAR and virtually all racing for decades. F1 is probably the most advanced tho NASCAR won't be far behind. I've long held that duPont's sponsorship of Hendrick was a sure path to better antifriction lubricants and surface polishes (think different polishes drivers and 'passenger's sides could make a difference? its a vertical wing and faster velocity creates negative pressure and don't think todays F1 and NASCAR teams haven't worked on that.)
We send any parts that we are preping for competition out to people that are skilled in that process. They won't let you in on their formulations for proprietary reasons so I haven't verified their components but I don't expect molybdenum sulfide to be the only anti-friction component. Or if its there at all. Take a look at one of those pistons or cylinder head coatings (mostly anti-heat transfer types) with a magnifying glass. Interesting. See any visible particulates?
I have nothing against synthetics, but learned about POAs. I will leave it at that and will take your advice and do better investigating.
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