For those K&N filter owners out there...
#1
06-02-2011, 01:21 PM
For those K&N filter owners out there...
Hello,
So the other day my car had a complete loss of power while on a highway. Was lucky to limp it to a service station less than a mile away and lucky that I was towed to my Honda dealership which was also less than a mile away.
but thats where my luck ended. The car would start up fine but stall within 10 seconds. Codes thrown was a random misfire in all cylinders.
so after testing the gas and looking for any leaks, they came to me with the MAF sensor and the spark plugs. Here is the part where is gets tricky:
So the MAF sensor had a fair amount of K&N oil on it. I had cleaned and reoiled it 2 weeks ago and while the media was pretty dry the seal was a little wet though I remember wiping it off prior to reinstalltion.
The dealership believes the MAF went out due to oil and contamination which in turn lead to the ignition coil packs getting bad data and consquently stressing the plugs and going out themselves.
So the dealer is replacing the packs, the plugs, and the sensor ($1080). I'm out of warranty (63k) and even if I had extended warranty the oil would have invalidated it...or would it have?
I called K&N warranty and the gentleman there (Tyson, I think) explained that even if I dunked my filter in a vat of k&n oil and put it in, the engine should not have enough draw to pull oil off the filter and all the way into the engine. Also he feels that the MAF sensor covered in pink oil after 2 weeks of driving while my filter that was cleaned already had some dirt in it is highly suspect.
At his request I went back to the shop and took pictures of the filter, the intake box assembly (3 pieces), and the MAF sensor. I noticed small trails on il in the intake surrounding the MAF sensor and some trace amounts behind it. I also noticed some oil on the bottom half of my intake box as well.
suspiciously enough while my media filter was dry, the rubber seal around it was dripping with oil. As I took photos it dripped on the ground.
He is asking that I send all of the photos and the invoice to his so he can forward it to his R&D for determination. Even if I dont get any money out of this I would like to know what they find. In the meanwhile if any of you have drop ins please keep the following in your car
an OEM filter and a can of MAF cleaner. oh and a scanguage too
It is possible I could have gotten the car running again had I been able to get the codes and clean off the sensor. Unfortunately the guys at honda did not have the proper cleaner for it and brake cleaner is not an acceptable alternative but the only one they had.
turns out the sensor go bad between 60k-80k but could last longer is cleaned and checked out every so often.
the oem filter is for those times where you have to go to the dealer for service or when your k&n filter is still a bit wet.
I have asked the dealership to keep all the parts for me to collect. This is in case K&N needs them but if they dont I would like to reclean all of them and inspect them.
So the other day my car had a complete loss of power while on a highway. Was lucky to limp it to a service station less than a mile away and lucky that I was towed to my Honda dealership which was also less than a mile away.
but thats where my luck ended. The car would start up fine but stall within 10 seconds. Codes thrown was a random misfire in all cylinders.
so after testing the gas and looking for any leaks, they came to me with the MAF sensor and the spark plugs. Here is the part where is gets tricky:
So the MAF sensor had a fair amount of K&N oil on it. I had cleaned and reoiled it 2 weeks ago and while the media was pretty dry the seal was a little wet though I remember wiping it off prior to reinstalltion.
The dealership believes the MAF went out due to oil and contamination which in turn lead to the ignition coil packs getting bad data and consquently stressing the plugs and going out themselves.
So the dealer is replacing the packs, the plugs, and the sensor ($1080). I'm out of warranty (63k) and even if I had extended warranty the oil would have invalidated it...or would it have?
I called K&N warranty and the gentleman there (Tyson, I think) explained that even if I dunked my filter in a vat of k&n oil and put it in, the engine should not have enough draw to pull oil off the filter and all the way into the engine. Also he feels that the MAF sensor covered in pink oil after 2 weeks of driving while my filter that was cleaned already had some dirt in it is highly suspect.
At his request I went back to the shop and took pictures of the filter, the intake box assembly (3 pieces), and the MAF sensor. I noticed small trails on il in the intake surrounding the MAF sensor and some trace amounts behind it. I also noticed some oil on the bottom half of my intake box as well.
suspiciously enough while my media filter was dry, the rubber seal around it was dripping with oil. As I took photos it dripped on the ground.
He is asking that I send all of the photos and the invoice to his so he can forward it to his R&D for determination. Even if I dont get any money out of this I would like to know what they find. In the meanwhile if any of you have drop ins please keep the following in your car
an OEM filter and a can of MAF cleaner. oh and a scanguage too
It is possible I could have gotten the car running again had I been able to get the codes and clean off the sensor. Unfortunately the guys at honda did not have the proper cleaner for it and brake cleaner is not an acceptable alternative but the only one they had.
turns out the sensor go bad between 60k-80k but could last longer is cleaned and checked out every so often.
the oem filter is for those times where you have to go to the dealer for service or when your k&n filter is still a bit wet.
I have asked the dealership to keep all the parts for me to collect. This is in case K&N needs them but if they dont I would like to reclean all of them and inspect them.
#2
06-02-2011, 02:26 PM
sorry for the bad luck. i have not needed to clean my K&N drop in on the fit, yet. all the previous times i had to clean and re-oil the filter on other cars, i did use the stock filter to make sure there was enough drying time for the K&N drop in just as you have mentioned. i've never, ever had oil drip from the filter. that sounds like too much oil may have been used. are you using the spray oil? i think one or two passes with that is sufficient enough to capture dirt and other particles.
#3
06-02-2011, 02:37 PM
Yeah, I'm going to have to take the lumps on the head for this one...
while I did do it a few weeks ago I did use more than a few passes worth enough that 3 hrs later it was still a bit wet but I installed it anyway since I had to go to work...
Now I'll make sure to have an OEM one in there and to use less oil. Neil have you checked your MAF sensor to see if it had oil on it?
while I did do it a few weeks ago I did use more than a few passes worth enough that 3 hrs later it was still a bit wet but I installed it anyway since I had to go to work...
Now I'll make sure to have an OEM one in there and to use less oil. Neil have you checked your MAF sensor to see if it had oil on it?
#4
06-02-2011, 04:20 PM
i've not touched the filter since i installed it. it still has the primary oil on it.
...but i'll go ahead and use your thread as a reminder to check things out in there when i get the chance.
thanks for starting the thread. hopefully more folks will be aware and keep an eye on things. some sensors are quite sensitive and i know that MAF sensors are just that. especially after owning a VW that ate three sensors during my ownership.
...but i'll go ahead and use your thread as a reminder to check things out in there when i get the chance.
thanks for starting the thread. hopefully more folks will be aware and keep an eye on things. some sensors are quite sensitive and i know that MAF sensors are just that. especially after owning a VW that ate three sensors during my ownership.
#5
06-02-2011, 06:58 PM
Your Honda dealer did not have MAF cleaner on hand? Wow, one call to their Auto Parts delivery service and 30 minutes later it would've be there. Instead they used brake cleaner and ruined your MAF and now they are charging you for a new MAF? That is their screw up so they should bear the cost of their mistake.
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_
#6
06-02-2011, 07:25 PM
Your Honda dealer did not have MAF cleaner on hand? Wow, one call to their Auto Parts delivery service and 30 minutes later it would've be there. Instead they used brake cleaner and ruined your MAF and now they are charging you for a new MAF? That is their screw up so they should bear the cost of their mistake.
_
_
There's plenty of stories (not necessarily here, but always KN related) that describe that once they got the MAF oiled up, it didn't work right even after cleaning attempts with proper cleaner and even more serious measures. They end up needing a new sensor.
#8
06-02-2011, 11:53 PM
I found it odd they didnt have proper MAF cleaner but will definately get a can once I square this with K&N who are waiting for my info to present it all to their R&D.
They suspect the dealership might have sprayed it up with oil since the photos show pink (clean) oil and it should have picked up dirt particles in the 2 weeks since I cleaned and reoiled it.
also they feel the oil shouldn't have coated the sensor they way it did.
I'll wait till they get back to me to consider recleaning and reusing the filter, this time giving it a day to dry and using the oem filter in the interim.
They suspect the dealership might have sprayed it up with oil since the photos show pink (clean) oil and it should have picked up dirt particles in the 2 weeks since I cleaned and reoiled it.
also they feel the oil shouldn't have coated the sensor they way it did.
I'll wait till they get back to me to consider recleaning and reusing the filter, this time giving it a day to dry and using the oem filter in the interim.
#9
06-03-2011, 12:19 AM
Here are the videos sent to me by K&N warranty department. Standard but interesting stuff. I'll be sending out my maf soon.
What Can Contaminate a Mass Air Flow Sensor?
What Does It Take to Foul a MAF Sensor? Extreme Testing
Mass Air Flow Sensors Intro & Test Results Summary
Can Oil Come Off Our Filters? High Airflow Testing & Engine Air Filter Dynamics
What Can Contaminate a Mass Air Flow Sensor?
What Does It Take to Foul a MAF Sensor? Extreme Testing
Mass Air Flow Sensors Intro & Test Results Summary
Can Oil Come Off Our Filters? High Airflow Testing & Engine Air Filter Dynamics
#10
07-19-2011, 07:40 AM
Update:
So K&N warranty department emailed me their findings. I have to call them to discuss them and work out getting my coil packs, and K&N filter back but though I'd share their findings:
"Customer installed a K&N air filter January 01, 2009 at unknown mileage. On
approx. June 1, 2011 at 63,605 miles his vehicle started stalling out and
would not stay running. The vehicle was to Metro Honda in Jersey City, NJ.
The dealer found multiple misfires and replaced all spark plugs and coils.
There weren’t any DTC codes noted on the R.O. The tech also noted that there
was oil found in the air filter housing."
Items to be reviewed
MAF sensor
Item #1
MAF sensor
Method of Review
Visual, Microscope, Mass Air Flow Test Bench
"The report of Analysis from the lab determined that the material that was found on the
MAF sensor was not the same as K&N filter media. The sludge on the sensor was engine
sludge and the coil packs were within specs and did not have to be replaced."
Obviously I have issues with these findings for a few reasons:
- If cotton isnt from K&N Filter then the only time I didnt have one was when I first bought the car but its highly unlikely a piece would have came off the OEM filter during my first 20k, I've had the KN filter on since then....
- When I looked at the airbox while work was being performed, I noticed oil and it wasnt black or sludge. the MAF also had red oil on it as well. I am unsure if the oil could have changed color and consistency during the 8 weeks that It has been since I removed and shipped these parts out but I am very concerned with their diagnosis claiming engine sludge worked it was down to my MAF sensor...
So I present these findings to you FF'ers with a keen knowledge on our engines to ask you if this is possible?
Later today I will be speaking to Rep from KN warranty department to ask him the same thing...the only time i've seen some blowback near my filter was in my accord when
So K&N warranty department emailed me their findings. I have to call them to discuss them and work out getting my coil packs, and K&N filter back but though I'd share their findings:
"Customer installed a K&N air filter January 01, 2009 at unknown mileage. On
approx. June 1, 2011 at 63,605 miles his vehicle started stalling out and
would not stay running. The vehicle was to Metro Honda in Jersey City, NJ.
The dealer found multiple misfires and replaced all spark plugs and coils.
There weren’t any DTC codes noted on the R.O. The tech also noted that there
was oil found in the air filter housing."
Items to be reviewed
MAF sensor
Item #1
MAF sensor
Method of Review
Visual, Microscope, Mass Air Flow Test Bench
"The report of Analysis from the lab determined that the material that was found on the
MAF sensor was not the same as K&N filter media. The sludge on the sensor was engine
sludge and the coil packs were within specs and did not have to be replaced."
Obviously I have issues with these findings for a few reasons:
- If cotton isnt from K&N Filter then the only time I didnt have one was when I first bought the car but its highly unlikely a piece would have came off the OEM filter during my first 20k, I've had the KN filter on since then....
- When I looked at the airbox while work was being performed, I noticed oil and it wasnt black or sludge. the MAF also had red oil on it as well. I am unsure if the oil could have changed color and consistency during the 8 weeks that It has been since I removed and shipped these parts out but I am very concerned with their diagnosis claiming engine sludge worked it was down to my MAF sensor...
So I present these findings to you FF'ers with a keen knowledge on our engines to ask you if this is possible?
Later today I will be speaking to Rep from KN warranty department to ask him the same thing...the only time i've seen some blowback near my filter was in my accord when
#12
07-19-2011, 12:05 PM
ive used KN filters in my past cars (and currently using two units on my 370Z). no issue including flat panel types and cone types. i check the MAF sensor after installation a few times, there's no oil on it. i will check it again later this week just for the hell of it i guess.
when you re-oil the filter after cleaning you only need to spray A VERY SMALL AMOUNT. if you're saturating every nook of the filter chances are oil will penetrate the MAF sensor. also after spraying the oil i let it sit in the garage overnight on some news papers as a precaution.
yah, some brake cleaners leaves behind residue. i mean some of them suck so bad you can smell the spray even after it's dry. id use RC car motor spray/nitro engine cleaner to clean mine. i dont even trust the PCB cleaners sold at electric parts stores.
GL with the repairs.
when you re-oil the filter after cleaning you only need to spray A VERY SMALL AMOUNT. if you're saturating every nook of the filter chances are oil will penetrate the MAF sensor. also after spraying the oil i let it sit in the garage overnight on some news papers as a precaution.
yah, some brake cleaners leaves behind residue. i mean some of them suck so bad you can smell the spray even after it's dry. id use RC car motor spray/nitro engine cleaner to clean mine. i dont even trust the PCB cleaners sold at electric parts stores.
GL with the repairs.
#13
07-20-2011, 03:01 PM
to clarify, I never messed with the MAF sensor NEVER used fluid to clean it.
So after talking with the warranty rep I asked about the cotton and the oil sludge their forensics vendor discovered on the MAF.
The cotton, he explained, could be anything though it look synthetic in nature...it could have gotten there anytime I removed the filter for cleaning....so for those of you out there buy an oem and swap it with the K&N when time to clean...
the oil was a big concern and he wants me to check my PCV valve to make sure it isnt stuck and to check the new filter housing for any oil....still have to do that.
If I do discover something is wrong with the PCV it would require taking off the intake manifold, which is a PITA.....it also makes me wonder if the dealership didnt screw it up themselves when doing the spring recall since it would require removing the same part.
cant prove it so wont pursue it....the K&N rep guy was cool though and recommends getting refunded for the coil packs since they are functional. I may pursue this.
This reminds me of my 96 accord with the broken thermostat which went undiscovered for a few years during which time I replaced my radiator and head gasket...sometimes its the little things that kill and they get overlooked for big repairs...
I heard that if the pcv valve is broken it could lead to oil fouling of the plugs and in older engines the increase in crankcase pressure could lead to leaks at the valve seals. I'm not sure if this is the case but I will take precautions since most dealerships wont check this...
So after talking with the warranty rep I asked about the cotton and the oil sludge their forensics vendor discovered on the MAF.
The cotton, he explained, could be anything though it look synthetic in nature...it could have gotten there anytime I removed the filter for cleaning....so for those of you out there buy an oem and swap it with the K&N when time to clean...
the oil was a big concern and he wants me to check my PCV valve to make sure it isnt stuck and to check the new filter housing for any oil....still have to do that.
If I do discover something is wrong with the PCV it would require taking off the intake manifold, which is a PITA.....it also makes me wonder if the dealership didnt screw it up themselves when doing the spring recall since it would require removing the same part.
cant prove it so wont pursue it....the K&N rep guy was cool though and recommends getting refunded for the coil packs since they are functional. I may pursue this.
This reminds me of my 96 accord with the broken thermostat which went undiscovered for a few years during which time I replaced my radiator and head gasket...sometimes its the little things that kill and they get overlooked for big repairs...
I heard that if the pcv valve is broken it could lead to oil fouling of the plugs and in older engines the increase in crankcase pressure could lead to leaks at the valve seals. I'm not sure if this is the case but I will take precautions since most dealerships wont check this...
#14
07-20-2011, 04:01 PM
Hello,
So the other day my car had a complete loss of power while on a highway. Was lucky to limp it to a service station less than a mile away and lucky that I was towed to my Honda dealership which was also less than a mile away.
but thats where my luck ended. The car would start up fine but stall within 10 seconds. Codes thrown was a random misfire in all cylinders.
so after testing the gas and looking for any leaks, they came to me with the MAF sensor and the spark plugs. Here is the part where is gets tricky:
So the MAF sensor had a fair amount of K&N oil on it. I had cleaned and reoiled it 2 weeks ago and while the media was pretty dry the seal was a little wet though I remember wiping it off prior to reinstalltion.
The dealership believes the MAF went out due to oil and contamination which in turn lead to the ignition coil packs getting bad data and consquently stressing the plugs and going out themselves.
So the dealer is replacing the packs, the plugs, and the sensor ($1080). I'm out of warranty (63k) and even if I had extended warranty the oil would have invalidated it...or would it have?
I called K&N warranty and the gentleman there (Tyson, I think) explained that even if I dunked my filter in a vat of k&n oil and put it in, the engine should not have enough draw to pull oil off the filter and all the way into the engine. Also he feels that the MAF sensor covered in pink oil after 2 weeks of driving while my filter that was cleaned already had some dirt in it is highly suspect.
At his request I went back to the shop and took pictures of the filter, the intake box assembly (3 pieces), and the MAF sensor. I noticed small trails on il in the intake surrounding the MAF sensor and some trace amounts behind it. I also noticed some oil on the bottom half of my intake box as well.
suspiciously enough while my media filter was dry, the rubber seal around it was dripping with oil. As I took photos it dripped on the ground.
He is asking that I send all of the photos and the invoice to his so he can forward it to his R&D for determination. Even if I dont get any money out of this I would like to know what they find. In the meanwhile if any of you have drop ins please keep the following in your car
an OEM filter and a can of MAF cleaner. oh and a scanguage too
It is possible I could have gotten the car running again had I been able to get the codes and clean off the sensor. Unfortunately the guys at honda did not have the proper cleaner for it and brake cleaner is not an acceptable alternative but the only one they had.
turns out the sensor go bad between 60k-80k but could last longer is cleaned and checked out every so often.
the oem filter is for those times where you have to go to the dealer for service or when your k&n filter is still a bit wet.
I have asked the dealership to keep all the parts for me to collect. This is in case K&N needs them but if they dont I would like to reclean all of them and inspect them.
So the other day my car had a complete loss of power while on a highway. Was lucky to limp it to a service station less than a mile away and lucky that I was towed to my Honda dealership which was also less than a mile away.
but thats where my luck ended. The car would start up fine but stall within 10 seconds. Codes thrown was a random misfire in all cylinders.
so after testing the gas and looking for any leaks, they came to me with the MAF sensor and the spark plugs. Here is the part where is gets tricky:
So the MAF sensor had a fair amount of K&N oil on it. I had cleaned and reoiled it 2 weeks ago and while the media was pretty dry the seal was a little wet though I remember wiping it off prior to reinstalltion.
The dealership believes the MAF went out due to oil and contamination which in turn lead to the ignition coil packs getting bad data and consquently stressing the plugs and going out themselves.
So the dealer is replacing the packs, the plugs, and the sensor ($1080). I'm out of warranty (63k) and even if I had extended warranty the oil would have invalidated it...or would it have?
I called K&N warranty and the gentleman there (Tyson, I think) explained that even if I dunked my filter in a vat of k&n oil and put it in, the engine should not have enough draw to pull oil off the filter and all the way into the engine. Also he feels that the MAF sensor covered in pink oil after 2 weeks of driving while my filter that was cleaned already had some dirt in it is highly suspect.
At his request I went back to the shop and took pictures of the filter, the intake box assembly (3 pieces), and the MAF sensor. I noticed small trails on il in the intake surrounding the MAF sensor and some trace amounts behind it. I also noticed some oil on the bottom half of my intake box as well.
suspiciously enough while my media filter was dry, the rubber seal around it was dripping with oil. As I took photos it dripped on the ground.
He is asking that I send all of the photos and the invoice to his so he can forward it to his R&D for determination. Even if I dont get any money out of this I would like to know what they find. In the meanwhile if any of you have drop ins please keep the following in your car
an OEM filter and a can of MAF cleaner. oh and a scanguage too
It is possible I could have gotten the car running again had I been able to get the codes and clean off the sensor. Unfortunately the guys at honda did not have the proper cleaner for it and brake cleaner is not an acceptable alternative but the only one they had.
turns out the sensor go bad between 60k-80k but could last longer is cleaned and checked out every so often.
the oem filter is for those times where you have to go to the dealer for service or when your k&n filter is still a bit wet.
I have asked the dealership to keep all the parts for me to collect. This is in case K&N needs them but if they dont I would like to reclean all of them and inspect them.
Oil fouled MAF wires are a common problem with K&N and other oiled filters. mostly after owner cleans and re-oils the filter media. If you aren't fastidious about tyhe oiling thats what happens. On our racers we use unoiled filters. There are some low restriction non-oiled filters out there, BMC comes to mind but you may have to rework theirs into your needs but they do make good filters.
A poll here of comp drivers indicates none of tyhem oil their K&N filters ever. One even claims he cleans the filter with good solvent (gasoline) and then thoroughly dries it before installing. Never a problem with oil fouling MAF wire.
I can see how so-called cleaners are a problem its difficult to spray clean the wire without dissassembly and then of course whats to keep oil from renovated filter from re-fouling the MAF.
Last edited by mahout; 07-21-2011 at 01:22 PM.
#15
07-21-2011, 12:50 PM
Thanks. I think when I get my filter back I'll give it a cleaning and oil it sparingly then let it dry over a day or two.
in the meanwhile I'll check the pcv valve because a part of me is concerned it may have been broken or stuck in the open position...
in the meanwhile I'll check the pcv valve because a part of me is concerned it may have been broken or stuck in the open position...
#16
07-21-2011, 12:57 PM
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#17
07-21-2011, 03:15 PM
One of the troops here says he oils a sponge and squeezes it thoroughly then wipes his K&N with the sponge. Says that does a good job. Don't know from personal experience but sounds like the right way to re-oil K&N filters, if you feel the need.
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