let's get a poke thread running
#41
03-16-2011 | 03:02 AM
Car Bibles : The Car Suspension Bible page 4 of 5
This is pretty informative stuff. This particular page supports the fact that "lowered" suspension does typically make your care handle "better"
HOWEVER. when talking about bound/rebound it does mention that TOO stiff a suspension set-up results in loss of contact with the road, and thus loss of traction.
DSM was also right when talking about unsprung mass. And I quote:
"The greater the unsprung weight, the greater the inertia of the suspension, which will be unable to respond as quickly to rapid changes in the road surface."
Obviously most aftermarket upgrades are going to enhance your vehicle. But if you dont set stuff up right, it can be detrimental.
This is pretty informative stuff. This particular page supports the fact that "lowered" suspension does typically make your care handle "better"
HOWEVER. when talking about bound/rebound it does mention that TOO stiff a suspension set-up results in loss of contact with the road, and thus loss of traction.
DSM was also right when talking about unsprung mass. And I quote:
"The greater the unsprung weight, the greater the inertia of the suspension, which will be unable to respond as quickly to rapid changes in the road surface."
Obviously most aftermarket upgrades are going to enhance your vehicle. But if you dont set stuff up right, it can be detrimental.
You addressed basically everything else pretty well, so I will just address his width/aspect ratio statement.
OP: Usually the shorter you can make the sidewall, the better the turn in or transient response, but this makes the ride yet stiffer. So you have to compromise somewhere.
Your example of a 40 height is a nice balance. A 25 for instance, or a stretched 40 would be pushing it.
The BC coilovers have a reputation for being stiff which raised my initial concern, then bigger heavier wheels and a meater tire added to that along with better brakes does not actually help, which may seem counter-intuitive.
In many cases it will make you slower, sometimes FAR slower.
This is because there is more unsprung, reciprocating and rotating masses for the engine and the suspension to manipulate. And with bigger brakes even in spite of wider tires, due to the weird dynamic camber and toe changes that you haven't anticipated or corrected, the wheels will now be locking up instead of pulsing like ABS should. Combine brake lock up with the tires skipping from overly hard coilovers and you can add considerable distance to your braking and a drastic drop in the amount of lateral g you can produce.
So instead of being able to brake later and take more speed through turns you wind up braking sooner and carrying less momentum through corners so you are slower coming out and later and to get back on the gas.
An awesome example of this was done on Top Gear UK where they had ~$15,000 to make a Renault Avantime van as fast as a Evo9 around a track. They failed.
The first thing James and Richard did was upgrade from 15" to 17" wheels, and low pro wide rubber to go with it, dropped it on some nice taught coilovers as well as some big 4 or 6 pot brakes.
They lost something like 5-6 seconds in the roughly 1:45 laps from the runs they did stock.
That is a lot. And they lost it for all the reasons outlined above.
I realize you wont be racing... but surely you understand how that would come in to effect in the real world vs. smooth prepped tracks with safety equipment and response teams watching. I just want to demonstrate what the changes actually results in so you are making informed choices.
You can have a nice flashy flushed car, and a fun one to drive. But it will take some research and hands on time. If you search a LOT around here you can find exactly what you need.
Sometimes it's less about having all the fancy parts and just picking the right supporting mods!
Now imagine needing to perform an emergency maneuver being on a mediocre or poor patch of road on the setup you were thinking about after reading the above information.
Throw in inclement weather and that is asking for trouble.
There are good looking, functional and dropped "Flush" Fits with all sorts of wheels. You shouldn't need bigger than a 16" to do it without getting yourself into a lot more work and frustration with rub and tearing off fenderwell pieces or whole bumpers.
#42
03-16-2011 | 04:27 AM
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 168
From: San Gabriel, California
That's a good link. And I agree that lowering the car is not a bad thing by default.
You addressed basically everything else pretty well, so I will just address his width/aspect ratio statement.
OP: Usually the shorter you can make the sidewall, the better the turn in or transient response, but this makes the ride yet stiffer. So you have to compromise somewhere.
Your example of a 40 height is a nice balance. A 25 for instance, or a stretched 40 would be pushing it.
The BC coilovers have a reputation for being stiff which raised my initial concern, then bigger heavier wheels and a meater tire added to that along with better brakes does not actually help, which may seem counter-intuitive.
In many cases it will make you slower, sometimes FAR slower.
This is because there is more unsprung, reciprocating and rotating masses for the engine and the suspension to manipulate. And with bigger brakes even in spite of wider tires, due to the weird dynamic camber and toe changes that you haven't anticipated or corrected, the wheels will now be locking up instead of pulsing like ABS should. Combine brake lock up with the tires skipping from overly hard coilovers and you can add considerable distance to your braking and a drastic drop in the amount of lateral g you can produce.
So instead of being able to brake later and take more speed through turns you wind up braking sooner and carrying less momentum through corners so you are slower coming out and later and to get back on the gas.
An awesome example of this was done on Top Gear UK where they had ~$15,000 to make a Renault Avantime van as fast as a Evo9 around a track. They failed.
The first thing James and Richard did was upgrade from 15" to 17" wheels, and low pro wide rubber to go with it, dropped it on some nice taught coilovers as well as some big 4 or 6 pot brakes.
They lost something like 5-6 seconds in the roughly 1:45 laps from the runs they did stock.
That is a lot. And they lost it for all the reasons outlined above.
I realize you wont be racing... but surely you understand how that would come in to effect in the real world vs. smooth prepped tracks with safety equipment and response teams watching. I just want to demonstrate what the changes actually results in so you are making informed choices.
You can have a nice flashy flushed car, and a fun one to drive. But it will take some research and hands on time. If you search a LOT around here you can find exactly what you need.
Sometimes it's less about having all the fancy parts and just picking the right supporting mods!
Now imagine needing to perform an emergency maneuver being on a mediocre or poor patch of road on the setup you were thinking about after reading the above information.
Throw in inclement weather and that is asking for trouble.
There are good looking, functional and dropped "Flush" Fits with all sorts of wheels. You shouldn't need bigger than a 16" to do it without getting yourself into a lot more work and frustration with rub and tearing off fenderwell pieces or whole bumpers.
You addressed basically everything else pretty well, so I will just address his width/aspect ratio statement.
OP: Usually the shorter you can make the sidewall, the better the turn in or transient response, but this makes the ride yet stiffer. So you have to compromise somewhere.
Your example of a 40 height is a nice balance. A 25 for instance, or a stretched 40 would be pushing it.
The BC coilovers have a reputation for being stiff which raised my initial concern, then bigger heavier wheels and a meater tire added to that along with better brakes does not actually help, which may seem counter-intuitive.
In many cases it will make you slower, sometimes FAR slower.
This is because there is more unsprung, reciprocating and rotating masses for the engine and the suspension to manipulate. And with bigger brakes even in spite of wider tires, due to the weird dynamic camber and toe changes that you haven't anticipated or corrected, the wheels will now be locking up instead of pulsing like ABS should. Combine brake lock up with the tires skipping from overly hard coilovers and you can add considerable distance to your braking and a drastic drop in the amount of lateral g you can produce.
So instead of being able to brake later and take more speed through turns you wind up braking sooner and carrying less momentum through corners so you are slower coming out and later and to get back on the gas.
An awesome example of this was done on Top Gear UK where they had ~$15,000 to make a Renault Avantime van as fast as a Evo9 around a track. They failed.
The first thing James and Richard did was upgrade from 15" to 17" wheels, and low pro wide rubber to go with it, dropped it on some nice taught coilovers as well as some big 4 or 6 pot brakes.
They lost something like 5-6 seconds in the roughly 1:45 laps from the runs they did stock.
That is a lot. And they lost it for all the reasons outlined above.
I realize you wont be racing... but surely you understand how that would come in to effect in the real world vs. smooth prepped tracks with safety equipment and response teams watching. I just want to demonstrate what the changes actually results in so you are making informed choices.
You can have a nice flashy flushed car, and a fun one to drive. But it will take some research and hands on time. If you search a LOT around here you can find exactly what you need.
Sometimes it's less about having all the fancy parts and just picking the right supporting mods!
Now imagine needing to perform an emergency maneuver being on a mediocre or poor patch of road on the setup you were thinking about after reading the above information.
Throw in inclement weather and that is asking for trouble.
There are good looking, functional and dropped "Flush" Fits with all sorts of wheels. You shouldn't need bigger than a 16" to do it without getting yourself into a lot more work and frustration with rub and tearing off fenderwell pieces or whole bumpers.
thank you for opening my eyes... ahah
i didn't realize it could be that bad.. i see exactly what your saying
but fu** i want that look...
maybe 16s and 205s are the way to go
with some moderately low and stiff enough springs
back to the drawing board
#43
03-16-2011 | 04:35 AM
I have 16x7 +40 slips on 205/45's. Fronts are flushed and the rears could use a 5mm or 8mm spacer. Also dropped on T1R springs. No fender mods, and have the occasional rubbing on dips at high speeds. Pretty nice as it is, just need to lower the rears and get better tires. Something to think about I guess
#44
03-16-2011 | 04:44 AM
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Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 168
From: San Gabriel, California
I have 16x7 +40 slips on 205/45's. Fronts are flushed and the rears could use a 5mm or 8mm spacer. Also dropped on T1R springs. No fender mods, and have the occasional rubbing on dips at high speeds. Pretty nice as it is, just need to lower the rears and get better tires. Something to think about I guess
I've heard bad things from spacers though, how do you feel? is it safe?
and as for your springs, do you know how much lower you got as compared to stock? like 2 inches right? and the back still needs to go lower?
#45
03-16-2011 | 05:05 AM
Hub centric spacers with the correct center bore that leave you enough threads to engage the lugs on the studs will do the trick and are perfectly safe as long as you do things properly..
Anything more than 3-5mm and you will want extended wheel studs pounded into the hub or just get the type of spacers that bolt to the hub and then have seperate studs for the wheel.
Anything more than 3-5mm and you will want extended wheel studs pounded into the hub or just get the type of spacers that bolt to the hub and then have seperate studs for the wheel.
#46
03-16-2011 | 05:23 AM
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 168
From: San Gabriel, California
Hub centric spacers with the correct center bore that leave you enough threads to engage the lugs on the studs will do the trick and are perfectly safe as long as you do things properly..
Anything more than 3-5mm and you will want extended wheel studs pounded into the hub or just get the type of spacers that bolt to the hub and then have seperate studs for the wheel.
Anything more than 3-5mm and you will want extended wheel studs pounded into the hub or just get the type of spacers that bolt to the hub and then have seperate studs for the wheel.
its like im adding something to where the rims should originally sit and then im adding rims to that... but i guess if its like less than .2 inches it should be relatively safe.
#47
03-16-2011 | 05:27 AM
As for the springs, on stock rims/tires, no rubbing at all. The front had no gaps and the rears had 2 finger gaps.
On my slips, fronts are perfect (with the 205s) and rears are 2.5 to 3 finger gap. From afar, they look really nice though
when I get my coilovers, I'll post some pics up. I do like the front lower than the rear look to be honest.
#48
03-16-2011 | 05:32 AM
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Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 168
From: San Gabriel, California
Yes with +40 the fronts are flush. As for the spacers, I haven't any as of yet. I want to get my coilovers before I start messing with the spacers. But like DSM said, more than 5mm, and you'll need to switch to longer studs. On the GE8 Lowered thread, on the last page or second to last page, we discuss this a little more in detail if I recall.
As for the springs, on stock rims/tires, no rubbing at all. The front had no gaps and the rears had 2 finger gaps.
On my slips, fronts are perfect (with the 205s) and rears are 2.5 to 3 finger gap. From afar, they look really nice though when I get my coilovers, I'll post some pics up. I do like the front lower than the rear look to be honest.
As for the springs, on stock rims/tires, no rubbing at all. The front had no gaps and the rears had 2 finger gaps.
On my slips, fronts are perfect (with the 205s) and rears are 2.5 to 3 finger gap. From afar, they look really nice though
when I get my coilovers, I'll post some pics up. I do like the front lower than the rear look to be honest.anything coilovers in mind?
and yeah, i just want my jazz to sit low cause i really hate having to look at this guy right now with 15s and super high.. makes him look so top heavy... the back right now has like 4 fingers spaces...
even with the t1rs you get 2.5 to 3 spaces in the back?
#49
03-16-2011 | 05:39 AM
please keep me updated, i'm sure it'll be sickk when you get your coilovers
anything coilovers in mind?
and yeah, i just want my jazz to sit low cause i really hate having to look at this guy right now with 15s and super high.. makes him look so top heavy... the back right now has like 4 fingers spaces...
even with the t1rs you get 2.5 to 3 spaces in the back?
anything coilovers in mind?
and yeah, i just want my jazz to sit low cause i really hate having to look at this guy right now with 15s and super high.. makes him look so top heavy... the back right now has like 4 fingers spaces...
even with the t1rs you get 2.5 to 3 spaces in the back?
I'll double check tomorrow on the spaces on the back. That was a guesstimate coming from the stock 185/55 to the 205/45.
#50
03-16-2011 | 05:48 AM
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Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 168
From: San Gabriel, California
there was one dude sitting on t1r s coils and he had stock 16 steelies probably like 1 finger space front and rear.. looked nice
so i think with 16s 205/45 it'll look pretty swell but i have no idea... its just a thought
post pictures of your ride jinnn
im sure it'll be beast
#51
03-16-2011 | 10:28 AM
I'm really impressed. This thread started a bit, ummmm, inauspiciously. With lots of patience, technical know-how, more patience, and good communication, however, it's actually turned into a great educational thread.
#52
03-16-2011 | 12:49 PM
About half way down the page, there is a tire size calculator. Lets you play with different tire size combos to compare overall diameter. And let you know how off it will make your speedometer
As for 205/50/16, it is actually slightly thicker than the stock 185/55's.
#54
03-16-2011 | 07:34 PM
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,295
From: Wandering around.
disclaimer: I'm just an average daily driver that doesn't know a lot about tuning.
#56
03-16-2011 | 08:32 PM
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 168
From: San Gabriel, California
i personally don't want my car running thicker than 45 just cause of looks
and i kinda want to go low
but yeah i like the way your fit looks too
mine looks sooo dumb right now! looks like a minivan cause its all high up and no spooiler to balance things out...
#58
03-20-2011 | 11:14 AM
Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 238
From: Houston, TX
Quick question
Ok it's nice to see this ended up being educational. I've got a question for you. I bought my wheels in the blind. I had a 97 Civic coupe and ordered DR-33's from discount tire. I just wanted the ones "recommended" for that car. They put them on and no problem. A month later I bought my Fit and put the wheels on the Fit. 205/40ZR17 either +42 or +45. I only know that because another member on here let me know that the DR-33's 17" are only available with those two offsets. I was wondering if there is any way I can find out which ones they are?
Just thought I'd ask. It seems like there some wheel smart people on here. Thanks in advance for any help.
OP- My fronts seem to "poke" a little and the rears are almost flush. (They're flush with the mud flaps)
Just thought I'd ask. It seems like there some wheel smart people on here. Thanks in advance for any help.
OP- My fronts seem to "poke" a little and the rears are almost flush. (They're flush with the mud flaps)
#59
03-20-2011 | 04:07 PM
Ray731 - you will have to pull one off and look at the back side of the spokes. Usually there will be an embossed (raised letter in the metal) stamp with the the offset numbers and "ET" behind them. This will be your offset.
