Honda announces recall
#82
02-18-2011, 03:26 PM
Hmm...I called the 800 number for Honda America...after I gave THEM plenty of information about me..my VIN, address and phone...they told me basically the same thing I get entering my information at the website...I'm currently not involved in a recall.
Honda needs to explain this a little further. If there is a cutoff date as far as manufactured Honda Fits that don't fall in the recall, then they need to let us know what that date is....Mid-November 2009?
The use of the word "currently" still leaves me somewhat in the air. I guess I have nothing to worry about...but was still told I'd be notified "if"....
They should follow the Toyota model. Recently when involved in the record breaking recalls..Toyota was very open about what was being done and why. Even offering videos of exactly what technicians would be doing...
Honda is being somewhat vague. It's a motion spring? But a lubrication issue? How is replacing the spring going to make it lubricated any better? Or does it just make it stronger and thus less needing of lubrication?
I'd like a diagram of exactly what is being replaced and a more detailed explanation of why...
Right now, if you are not a mechanic or mechanically versed...it's basically...there's a problem...wait for your notice...
Personally? I'd like more information.
Honda needs to explain this a little further. If there is a cutoff date as far as manufactured Honda Fits that don't fall in the recall, then they need to let us know what that date is....Mid-November 2009?
The use of the word "currently" still leaves me somewhat in the air. I guess I have nothing to worry about...but was still told I'd be notified "if"....
They should follow the Toyota model. Recently when involved in the record breaking recalls..Toyota was very open about what was being done and why. Even offering videos of exactly what technicians would be doing...
Honda is being somewhat vague. It's a motion spring? But a lubrication issue? How is replacing the spring going to make it lubricated any better? Or does it just make it stronger and thus less needing of lubrication?
I'd like a diagram of exactly what is being replaced and a more detailed explanation of why...
Right now, if you are not a mechanic or mechanically versed...it's basically...there's a problem...wait for your notice...
Personally? I'd like more information.
#83
02-18-2011, 03:46 PM
fitchet Buy the factory service manual. It will show you the part. Search the internet and you'll learn the issue has been a topic of discussion for a few years regarding other V-Tec engines.. You can but replacement springs on-line and their availability has nothing to do with this recall.
The lost motion spring is not unique to the Honda Fit, this re-call is. I trust Honda's engineers and thank them for keeping an eye out on my car.
Owners effected will receive notification.
Patience. All in due course. All will be well.
The lost motion spring is not unique to the Honda Fit, this re-call is. I trust Honda's engineers and thank them for keeping an eye out on my car.
Owners effected will receive notification.
Patience. All in due course. All will be well.
#84
02-18-2011, 03:54 PM
Sorry, but ignorance about an issue, is not valid reason to not worry about it.
I am not too happy that at the least it seems Honda's quality control failed and not only failed but failed in regards to an engine component that IMO should be tested thoroughly.
When an automaker does a recall on this level, they aren't doing it to be nice. They are doing it because they've determined that A: It's a safety issue, and they will be forced to do it...or B: It's a problem that if left unadressed would result in waves of such negative publicity that it would be detrimental to the reputation of the entire company.
Yeah, Honda is being pro-active...but again, they aren't just being nice. If they thought the failure rate was going to be low enough, or not result in potential accidents...they wouldn't be recalling all our Fits...
As a consumer? Sure, it might be fixable, it might be fine. But I'm still not happy. Right off the bat, the negative publicity of a high profile engine recall hits the value of my vehicle.
Secondly, it REALLY shakes my confidence in Honda. Sure many automakers are involved in recalls to varying extent. But an engine part? That's failure can result in sudden stalling and/or engine damage?
In my way of thinking, when I was looking to purchase, within the subcompact class there were numerous choices. I paid a premium, to go with the Honda product...not exclusively, but in part because of Honda's reputation for quality. That reputation just took an enormous hit, IMO.
Honda, Toyota...I don't know it growth and competition has just resulted in automakers cutting corners..but the perhaps unjustified reputation of these Japanese companies building superior products has definently dropped recently.
I still love the design of My Fit. IMO it's a beautifully designed vehicle. But can I ever have as much confidence in the entire package? At an entry level, subcompact level, I don't mind cutting corners with cheaper carpeting, no locking fuel door...things like that...
But I bought my Fit with the hope that as a Honda, a place they would NOT cut corners or drop the ball would be the engine. Evidently Honda did.
Will it all be alright? Now really that can only be defined in retrospect. It will take 100,000+ miles and perhaps years before anyone can really say, The engine is fine...
But I at least now have serious concern about what other area's or parts might be substandard that we simply are not being told about...
I am not too happy that at the least it seems Honda's quality control failed and not only failed but failed in regards to an engine component that IMO should be tested thoroughly.
When an automaker does a recall on this level, they aren't doing it to be nice. They are doing it because they've determined that A: It's a safety issue, and they will be forced to do it...or B: It's a problem that if left unadressed would result in waves of such negative publicity that it would be detrimental to the reputation of the entire company.
Yeah, Honda is being pro-active...but again, they aren't just being nice. If they thought the failure rate was going to be low enough, or not result in potential accidents...they wouldn't be recalling all our Fits...
As a consumer? Sure, it might be fixable, it might be fine. But I'm still not happy. Right off the bat, the negative publicity of a high profile engine recall hits the value of my vehicle.
Secondly, it REALLY shakes my confidence in Honda. Sure many automakers are involved in recalls to varying extent. But an engine part? That's failure can result in sudden stalling and/or engine damage?
In my way of thinking, when I was looking to purchase, within the subcompact class there were numerous choices. I paid a premium, to go with the Honda product...not exclusively, but in part because of Honda's reputation for quality. That reputation just took an enormous hit, IMO.
Honda, Toyota...I don't know it growth and competition has just resulted in automakers cutting corners..but the perhaps unjustified reputation of these Japanese companies building superior products has definently dropped recently.
I still love the design of My Fit. IMO it's a beautifully designed vehicle. But can I ever have as much confidence in the entire package? At an entry level, subcompact level, I don't mind cutting corners with cheaper carpeting, no locking fuel door...things like that...
But I bought my Fit with the hope that as a Honda, a place they would NOT cut corners or drop the ball would be the engine. Evidently Honda did.
Will it all be alright? Now really that can only be defined in retrospect. It will take 100,000+ miles and perhaps years before anyone can really say, The engine is fine...
But I at least now have serious concern about what other area's or parts might be substandard that we simply are not being told about...
Like spin out said, 2009 is the first year this engine has been out. You can't build a perfect machine. Can you attempt to go overboard on part quality? You can try, but even then, there are some things that only show up after time. Little quirks that remind you that reality doesn't always follow theory/design.
Not only that, but you act as though Honda PRODUCES every part... obviously, they don't. They have to source parts from other companies. Honda therefore has to hope THEIR reliability is also up to expectation.
They did an investigation into the complaints... then changed the specification. And when the older specification CLEARLY showed it was an issue, they made a recall decision.
Tell me... How many companies make their own product... where every last piece of it is MADE at that company, not sourced from another company?
Heck, its quite possible that Honda took a batch of springs (from the same company) prior to mass production of the 2009 Fit, used them in a couple of prototype engines that could very well be running strong today. Could YOU predict a future recall on test engines like that?
This attitude of yours is just mind boggling.
Toyota waited until there was a massive media attention and government action to address the accelerator pedal issue with a recall. I hope for your sake, Dodge doesn't have the same mentality.
Oh... btw... here's your recalls... one of which involves the brakes.
1999 Dodge Caravan Recalls | Find Used
Another involves the engine, both listing as possible resulting in a crash. There are a few more involving a seat belt and an airbag. Then a bunch for lighting.
#85
02-18-2011, 04:00 PM
Look back at my early posts in this thread and I've tried to explain the spring and its function. It has nothing more in life to do than provide positive pressure on the secondary rocker arm which sits idle 99% of it's life in most of our cars. In fact, unless you've brought the RMP's in your Fit above 5300K it's never been called on to do its thing in your Fit's engine.
The spring keeps the rocker in place to assure positive engagement when it's called for and to otherwise keep it from rattling around - hence the noise. If the rocker failed engagement when called for [buy oil pressure through the V-Tec engagement valve which pins the secondary rocker to the primary so the two act as one utilizing the secondary rocker lobe profile] because of a spring issue, there's a slim chance that a stall might be triggered, but in reality that's a long shot.
The spring keeps the rocker in place to assure positive engagement when it's called for and to otherwise keep it from rattling around - hence the noise. If the rocker failed engagement when called for [buy oil pressure through the V-Tec engagement valve which pins the secondary rocker to the primary so the two act as one utilizing the secondary rocker lobe profile] because of a spring issue, there's a slim chance that a stall might be triggered, but in reality that's a long shot.
Last edited by Krimson_Cardnal; 02-18-2011 at 04:04 PM.
#86
02-18-2011, 04:02 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,428
fitchet
Cry about it, or go do some research and educate yourself.
Calling Honda substandard is a joke. Like that rant of yours.
Goobers you hit the nail on the head for both posters.
Cry about it, or go do some research and educate yourself.
Calling Honda substandard is a joke. Like that rant of yours.
Goobers you hit the nail on the head for both posters.
#87
02-18-2011, 04:09 PM
You accuse HONDA of being "substandard"... the article posted above stated that they received complaints and changed their specification.
Like spin out said, 2009 is the first year this engine has been out. You can't build a perfect machine. Can you attempt to go overboard on part quality? You can try, but even then, there are some things that only show up after time. Little quirks that remind you that reality doesn't always follow theory/design.
Not only that, but you act as though Honda PRODUCES every part... obviously, they don't. They have to source parts from other companies. Honda therefore has to hope THEIR reliability is also up to expectation.
They did an investigation into the complaints... then changed the specification. And when the older specification CLEARLY showed it was an issue, they made a recall decision.
PS:
Yes, I really do credit Honda for doing the right thing. The recall IS the right thing to do. BUT, I also have to cynically believe that they must of projected a significant level of failure resulting in liability problems and reputation damage..because if the failure rate was going to be insignificant..they would of ignored it.
Tell me... How many companies make their own product... where every last piece of it is MADE at that company, not sourced from another company?
Heck, its quite possible that Honda took a batch of springs (from the same company) prior to mass production of the 2009 Fit, used them in a couple of prototype engines that could very well be running strong today. Could YOU predict a future recall on test engines like that?
This attitude of yours is just mind boggling.
Like spin out said, 2009 is the first year this engine has been out. You can't build a perfect machine. Can you attempt to go overboard on part quality? You can try, but even then, there are some things that only show up after time. Little quirks that remind you that reality doesn't always follow theory/design.
Not only that, but you act as though Honda PRODUCES every part... obviously, they don't. They have to source parts from other companies. Honda therefore has to hope THEIR reliability is also up to expectation.
They did an investigation into the complaints... then changed the specification. And when the older specification CLEARLY showed it was an issue, they made a recall decision.
PS:
Yes, I really do credit Honda for doing the right thing. The recall IS the right thing to do. BUT, I also have to cynically believe that they must of projected a significant level of failure resulting in liability problems and reputation damage..because if the failure rate was going to be insignificant..they would of ignored it.
Tell me... How many companies make their own product... where every last piece of it is MADE at that company, not sourced from another company?
Heck, its quite possible that Honda took a batch of springs (from the same company) prior to mass production of the 2009 Fit, used them in a couple of prototype engines that could very well be running strong today. Could YOU predict a future recall on test engines like that?
This attitude of yours is just mind boggling.
Everyone is free to react to this recall personally in whatever manner they wish. It is a blow to my overall confidence in Honda.
My dad works for a company (in quality control) that provides parts for the automotive industry. So I am well aware that ALL automotive manufacturers outsource components from all over...
According to my dad? Because his company provides parts to Honda and others...Honda is a real stickler for quality or making sure the components meet certain standards.
But that is precisely why I'm so disappointed today. Evidently someone at some point REALLY dropped the ball. Hell, even Honda would admit that. Trust me, they didn't wake up one morning and just randomly decide they would enjoy "upgrading" the engines in Honda Fits...they are doing this because they project they must....it was a quality control FAILURE.
People take things with their automobile "personally"...I'm as guilty as anyone I guess...
But my saying I'm upset over this recall, and that my faith in Honda while not lost is shaken...does not mean I dislike either my automobile or yours..
Honda engines had a sterling reputation...they still have a good reputation..BUT...you don't want things like this happening.
To me what is mind boggling is the attitude that one shouldn't question, or be upset...hearing that your BRAND NEW..vehicle has a DEFECT that will require partial disassembly of the engine...SHOULD upset you...
You can whistle past the graveyard as loudly as you want...but even a Honda Executive would admit, this is something they did not want..and do not like....
Last edited by fitchet; 02-18-2011 at 04:15 PM.
#88
02-18-2011, 04:16 PM
For those interested in the Sales numbers for 2009, I've linked it below. About 67,000 fits were sold in the US in 2009 (about 5K of them were probably 2010 model year - december sales)
As I said above, I'm not worrying much about the recall. With 19 months of driving on our fit, I highly doubt 1 more month will make a difference.
Of note, I'm sure Honda doesn't have an extra 700,000 of these springs laying around so they likely have to ramp up production to meet the demand that will come once the recall is sent out. (the US market is only 1/7 of the recall) It's not like they can just take them off the shelf as they still need to produce 2011 vehicles. Likely they will have to find a method to increase production 10x and for them to have the expectation that they'll be able to begin this type of work within 1 month is VERY impressive. Granted they won't be fixing them all on day one but still, the factory that produces these springs looks like they are producing 500,000 per year and now they have to produce an extra 700,000 in just a few months.
Temple of VTEC Rumors and News - American Honda December Sales Up 25.5 Percent
I'm curious as to where this part is located... anyone have an exploded view of the engine?
~SB
As I said above, I'm not worrying much about the recall. With 19 months of driving on our fit, I highly doubt 1 more month will make a difference.
Of note, I'm sure Honda doesn't have an extra 700,000 of these springs laying around so they likely have to ramp up production to meet the demand that will come once the recall is sent out. (the US market is only 1/7 of the recall) It's not like they can just take them off the shelf as they still need to produce 2011 vehicles. Likely they will have to find a method to increase production 10x and for them to have the expectation that they'll be able to begin this type of work within 1 month is VERY impressive. Granted they won't be fixing them all on day one but still, the factory that produces these springs looks like they are producing 500,000 per year and now they have to produce an extra 700,000 in just a few months.
Temple of VTEC Rumors and News - American Honda December Sales Up 25.5 Percent
I'm curious as to where this part is located... anyone have an exploded view of the engine?
~SB
----------------------------------------------
I'm amazed to see some of the knee jerk reactions being expressed. Grow up - in this world shit happens. Honda is one of the most highly respected manufactures in the world. Announced re-calls are positive actions. They are doing the right thing.
Quit acting like lawyers.
#89
02-18-2011, 04:24 PM
Sorry, I'm a fellow Honda Fit owner...I went from an Accord..to this Fit..I have supported Honda for decades...
It's NOT my fault..but the reality is some Honda Fit engines got produced, and sold with SUBSTANDARD parts..requiring a massive and costly recall....
Trash me? I didn't do it. That's simply the reality.
I suspect I will get over it....but to simply ignore the reality of this? It's NOT a good thing.
I still like my Fit, I don't foresee me making any rash changes...but I'd say this fast forwards me to Strike Two....
An additional major recall and I think I'd be forced to seriously think about making a change.
#90
02-18-2011, 04:38 PM
fitchet Buy the factory service manual. It will show you the part. Search the internet and you'll learn the issue has been a topic of discussion for a few years regarding other V-Tec engines.. You can but replacement springs on-line and their availability has nothing to do with this recall.
The lost motion spring is not unique to the Honda Fit, this re-call is. I trust Honda's engineers and thank them for keeping an eye out on my car.
Owners effected will receive notification.
Patience. All in due course. All will be well.
The lost motion spring is not unique to the Honda Fit, this re-call is. I trust Honda's engineers and thank them for keeping an eye out on my car.
Owners effected will receive notification.
Patience. All in due course. All will be well.
I guess my question is I'm somewhat confused by Honda's wording. They seem to suggest the problem is specifically the strength or durability of the spring...replacing the spring with one with different specifications. BUT...then they suggest the problem is related to the lubrication of the entire mounting assembly? I don't understand how replacing the spring would change the lubrication of the area...unless replacing the spring just means it would be more durable and require less lubrication?
Thanks for your honest attempt to educate me. I seem to have upset some people by admitting I'm upset about this recall.
I believe it will all work out. But I refuse to simply say this is nothing.
#91
02-18-2011, 04:38 PM
Look back at my early posts in this thread and I've tried to explain the spring and its function. It has nothing more in life to do than provide positive pressure on the secondary rocker arm which sits idle 99% of it's life in most of our cars. In fact, unless you've brought the RMP's in your Fit above 5300K it's never been called on to do its thing in your Fit's engine.
The spring keeps the rocker in place to assure positive engagement when it's called for and to otherwise keep it from rattling around - hence the noise. If the rocker failed engagement when called for [buy oil pressure through the V-Tec engagement valve which pins the secondary rocker to the primary so the two act as one utilizing the secondary rocker lobe profile] because of a spring issue, there's a slim chance that a stall might be triggered, but in reality that's a long shot.
The spring keeps the rocker in place to assure positive engagement when it's called for and to otherwise keep it from rattling around - hence the noise. If the rocker failed engagement when called for [buy oil pressure through the V-Tec engagement valve which pins the secondary rocker to the primary so the two act as one utilizing the secondary rocker lobe profile] because of a spring issue, there's a slim chance that a stall might be triggered, but in reality that's a long shot.
it's sort of like being in the hospital.... you want to get out as quick as possible before they screw up something simple.
#92
02-18-2011, 04:43 PM
Look, if the supplier had slipped in a few weeks of faulty parts through the supply chain, I can understand. But judging by the numbers, this is likely a design flaw--or the supplier was shipping faulty parts for what? a year or two? So Honda is to blame. They realized the problem waaaay down the pike and are now in the process of rectifying it but it's still a f*ck up on their part and a black eye for them, IMHO.
Like the other poster, I decided pay a premium for a Honda. I could have gotten a car with more features for the money but those things are not important to me when compared to quality, and overall design. This recall put a little doubt in my mind as to how much I'm going to like my fit 10 years down the road. (Yes, I keep my cars a long time. Still have my 91 accord. That thing still runs great.)
PS. I'm not a lawyer and I've never sued anyone so please don't go there.
#93
02-18-2011, 04:49 PM
Any time I'm in a hospital I defer my judgment to those who know and understand what they are doing. It never means I quit asking questions, however.
I trust the dealership I bought from to service and repair my Honda. Tommie down the street is an excellent mechanic. He employs one other wrench monkey and they are always busy serving a small village and have an excellent reputation.
I didn't buy my Honda from Tommie. I'll take it to a shop where they only work on Honda's and have a crew of mechanics. Tommie can work on my 16yr old Cadillac.
I trust the dealership I bought from to service and repair my Honda. Tommie down the street is an excellent mechanic. He employs one other wrench monkey and they are always busy serving a small village and have an excellent reputation.
I didn't buy my Honda from Tommie. I'll take it to a shop where they only work on Honda's and have a crew of mechanics. Tommie can work on my 16yr old Cadillac.
#94
02-18-2011, 04:54 PM
Hmm, I guess it's not only lawyers that need to live in a world of blame.
I still can remember a few things from my childhood that have always stuck with me though, at my age the details fade... one had something to do with glass houses.
Just not sure why that always comes to mind when the talk turns to perfection... if I could only remember.
I still can remember a few things from my childhood that have always stuck with me though, at my age the details fade... one had something to do with glass houses.
Just not sure why that always comes to mind when the talk turns to perfection... if I could only remember.
#95
02-18-2011, 05:07 PM
You make some good points but this is not one of them. It's up to Honda to periodically check quality in the supply chain. Honda puts their name on the product and a company like Honda certainly should not be "hoping" for the reliability of sourced parts. They should be making damn sure of it.
Look, if the supplier had slipped in a few weeks of faulty parts through the supply chain, I can understand. But judging by the numbers, this is likely a design flaw--or the supplier was shipping faulty parts for what? a year or two? So Honda is to blame. They realized the problem waaaay down the pike and are now in the process of rectifying it but it's still a f*ck up on their part and a black eye for them, IMHO.
Like the other poster, I decided pay a premium for a Honda. I could have gotten a car with more features for the money but those things are not important to me when compared to quality, and overall design. This recall put a little doubt in my mind as to how much I'm going to like my fit 10 years down the road. (Yes, I keep my cars a long time. Still have my 91 accord. That thing still runs great.)
PS. I'm not a lawyer and I've never sued anyone so please don't go there.
Look, if the supplier had slipped in a few weeks of faulty parts through the supply chain, I can understand. But judging by the numbers, this is likely a design flaw--or the supplier was shipping faulty parts for what? a year or two? So Honda is to blame. They realized the problem waaaay down the pike and are now in the process of rectifying it but it's still a f*ck up on their part and a black eye for them, IMHO.
Like the other poster, I decided pay a premium for a Honda. I could have gotten a car with more features for the money but those things are not important to me when compared to quality, and overall design. This recall put a little doubt in my mind as to how much I'm going to like my fit 10 years down the road. (Yes, I keep my cars a long time. Still have my 91 accord. That thing still runs great.)
PS. I'm not a lawyer and I've never sued anyone so please don't go there.
There were something like 100 complaints about the car. Let's multiply that 10 fold or more for those that DON'T complain. That's at least 1000 cars that could have already encountered the issue.
You go through how many springs PER car? I don't know for sure, at least one... possibly four (one per cylinder). How many cars were produced? Well, the recall is on 92,000 cars, that's something on the order of 100,000 to 400,000 springs. It probably only takes one spring to cause a complaint.
So the odds are 1 in 400 to 1 in 100. Each time they grab a spring.
So, you think grabbing random samples from the entire 400,000+ batch would guarantee encountering at least one "bad" spring?
There is no algorithm in the world that would give you a perfect sample test, that could nail a bad spring with those odds. They do or they don't. Luck of the draw.
Maybe, if the springs came sorted in the exact order they were made (highly unlikely), you could then spit out every fourth spring for a test. Then if there's a failure, grab the surrounding springs to test until there's no failure.
But they're most likely NOT in any kind of order. Only HUGE batches. Even then, it can vary quite drastically from one spring to the next. You could have a box of 100 springs, with 99 being bad. If the test spring just happens to be the ONE good spring... well, it's going through. However, the chances of you not grabbing a bad spring in that case is astronomically low.
Now, consider that the the count of bad springs vs good springs are most likely reversed... what are the chances of grabbing bad springs?
Also consider this... in every production, there's a margin. Whose to say, they found a couple of bad springs in a few tests... but it was within the margin. That in 100 test sample, they FOUND two bad springs. That could be within the margin of most companies. And to make it even more complicated, what if these "bad" springs were only marginally bad. That they were just technically out of spec, but would've worked for 10 years or longer.
For all we know, the only reason Honda is issuing the recall on those affected... is because in the year after their spec change, there were no complaints on the new ones, and only a handful more on the old. so to avoid more complaints, they voluntarily issued a recall.
In the end... all we are doing is jumping to conclusions. With you and a few others saying Honda messed up... and myself with a few others asking you to give them the "benefit of the doubt."
edit... sorry, I forgot the 92k/97k are just NA Fits. There's over 646000 Fits being recalled worldwide, but the complaints were only 100 worldwide. So, the odds I mentioned are now 1/6th of it. So, in 2.5 million springs used... would you be able to make an algorithm to find 10,000 bad springs? (changing from 10x to 100x to make it a more worse case). Assuming it's not one mass of bad springs or not completely random. It's still highly luck of the draw.
Last edited by Goobers; 02-18-2011 at 05:21 PM.
#96
02-18-2011, 05:11 PM
Hmm, I guess it's not only lawyers that need to live in a world of blame.
I still can remember a few things from my childhood that have always stuck with me though, at my age the details fade... one had something to do with glass houses.
Just not sure why that always comes to mind when the talk turns to perfection... if I could only remember.
I still can remember a few things from my childhood that have always stuck with me though, at my age the details fade... one had something to do with glass houses.
Just not sure why that always comes to mind when the talk turns to perfection... if I could only remember.
#97
02-18-2011, 05:12 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,428
Phht...Learn to read...I said, I'm worried about what other PARTS might be substandard...
Sorry, I'm a fellow Honda Fit owner...I went from an Accord..to this Fit..I have supported Honda for decades...
It's NOT my fault..but the reality is some Honda Fit engines got produced, and sold with SUBSTANDARD parts..requiring a massive and costly recall....
Trash me? I didn't do it. That's simply the reality.
I suspect I will get over it....but to simply ignore the reality of this? It's NOT a good thing.
I still like my Fit, I don't foresee me making any rash changes...but I'd say this fast forwards me to Strike Two....
An additional major recall and I think I'd be forced to seriously think about making a change.
Sorry, I'm a fellow Honda Fit owner...I went from an Accord..to this Fit..I have supported Honda for decades...
It's NOT my fault..but the reality is some Honda Fit engines got produced, and sold with SUBSTANDARD parts..requiring a massive and costly recall....
Trash me? I didn't do it. That's simply the reality.
I suspect I will get over it....but to simply ignore the reality of this? It's NOT a good thing.
I still like my Fit, I don't foresee me making any rash changes...but I'd say this fast forwards me to Strike Two....
An additional major recall and I think I'd be forced to seriously think about making a change.
You make some good points but this is not one of them. It's up to Honda to periodically check quality in the supply chain. Honda puts their name on the product and a company like Honda certainly should not be "hoping" for the reliability of sourced parts. They should be making damn sure of it.
Look, if the supplier had slipped in a few weeks of faulty parts through the supply chain, I can understand. But judging by the numbers, this is likely a design flaw--or the supplier was shipping faulty parts for what? a year or two? So Honda is to blame. They realized the problem waaaay down the pike and are now in the process of rectifying it but it's still a f*ck up on their part and a black eye for them, IMHO.
Like the other poster, I decided pay a premium for a Honda. I could have gotten a car with more features for the money but those things are not important to me when compared to quality, and overall design. This recall put a little doubt in my mind as to how much I'm going to like my fit 10 years down the road. (Yes, I keep my cars a long time. Still have my 91 accord. That thing still runs great.)
PS. I'm not a lawyer and I've never sued anyone so please don't go there.
Look, if the supplier had slipped in a few weeks of faulty parts through the supply chain, I can understand. But judging by the numbers, this is likely a design flaw--or the supplier was shipping faulty parts for what? a year or two? So Honda is to blame. They realized the problem waaaay down the pike and are now in the process of rectifying it but it's still a f*ck up on their part and a black eye for them, IMHO.
Like the other poster, I decided pay a premium for a Honda. I could have gotten a car with more features for the money but those things are not important to me when compared to quality, and overall design. This recall put a little doubt in my mind as to how much I'm going to like my fit 10 years down the road. (Yes, I keep my cars a long time. Still have my 91 accord. That thing still runs great.)
PS. I'm not a lawyer and I've never sued anyone so please don't go there.
So you've made it this far in life and are just now learning that a byproduct of mass production is occasional flaws?
Sorry about your anecdote and misfortune, but to create such poutrage over this is ridiculous.
Things happen, castings shift, internal oxidation occurs, flaws and slight inconsistencies in material stock are a fact of life. There is theory, and then there is reality. You need to come back to reality.
Manufacturers can still miss the occasional faulty part even with the most stringent of assembly and manufacturing quality control and sampling.
Anyone remember all those Lambo's catching on fire because the vibration of running would cause the seams of welds on the fuel pump hangers to bust setting off a whole chain reaction of nastiness? And that was with the new Audi ownership, and you know the Germans make good stuff...
The first batch of Ferrari 458's had a similar spontaneous combustion issue and that was with millions upon millions invested into such a small fleet.
Expecting Honda to issue a recall for an OE flaw is one thing, but expecting them to get hauled through the mud like Toyota did last summer and then go onto to provide video of Joe Schmoe walking you through the repair is another. There were also political pressurings for that, and the end result was added cost to the final product.
So lets be glad it is a spring and not a bonfire that causes you so much angst.
K_C we don't always see eye to eye, and I am a bit less forgiving than you, but more often than not you speak the truth. Even if it does involve a dig at me from time to time.
Not that you are beyond reproach either when perpetually trying to take the moral high ground to try and shame others for their opinions whilst spouting yours..
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 02-18-2011 at 05:15 PM.
#98
02-18-2011, 05:16 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,428
Obviously, I sound like I'm making excuses.
There were something like 100 complaints about the car. Let's multiply that 10 fold or more for those that DON'T complain. That's at least 1000 cars that could have already encountered the issue.
You go through how many springs PER car? I don't know for sure, at least one... possibly four (one per cylinder). How many cars were produced? Well, the recall is on 92,000 cars, that's something on the order of 100,000 to 400,000 springs. It probably only takes one spring to cause a complaint.
So the odds are 1 in 400 to 1 in 100. Each time they grab a spring.
So, you think grabbing random samples from the entire 400,000+ batch would guarantee encountering at least one "bad" spring?
There is no algorithm in the world that would give you a perfect sample test, that could nail a bad spring with those odds. They do or they don't. Luck of the draw.
Maybe, if the springs came sorted in the exact order they were made (highly unlikely), you could then spit out every fourth spring for a test. Then if there's a failure, grab the surrounding springs to test until there's no failure.
But they're most likely NOT in any kind of order. Only HUGE batches. Even then, it can vary quite drastically from one spring to the next. You could have a box of 100 springs, with 99 being bad. If the test spring just happens to be the ONE good spring... well, it's going through. However, the chances of you not grabbing a bad spring in that case is astronomically low.
Now, consider that the the count of bad springs vs good springs are most likely reversed... what are the chances of grabbing bad springs?
Also consider this... in every production, there's a margin. Whose to say, they found a couple of bad springs in a few tests... but it was within the margin. That in 100 test sample, they FOUND two bad springs. That could be within the margin of most companies. And to make it even more complicated, what if these "bad" springs were only marginally bad. That they were just technically out of spec, but would've worked for 10 years or longer.
For all we know, the only reason Honda is issuing the recall on those affected... is because in the year after their spec change, there were no complaints on the new ones, and only a handful more on the old. so to avoid more complaints, they voluntarily issued a recall.
In the end... all we are doing is jumping to conclusions. With you and a few others saying Honda messed up... and myself with a few others asking you to give them the "benefit of the doubt."
There were something like 100 complaints about the car. Let's multiply that 10 fold or more for those that DON'T complain. That's at least 1000 cars that could have already encountered the issue.
You go through how many springs PER car? I don't know for sure, at least one... possibly four (one per cylinder). How many cars were produced? Well, the recall is on 92,000 cars, that's something on the order of 100,000 to 400,000 springs. It probably only takes one spring to cause a complaint.
So the odds are 1 in 400 to 1 in 100. Each time they grab a spring.
So, you think grabbing random samples from the entire 400,000+ batch would guarantee encountering at least one "bad" spring?
There is no algorithm in the world that would give you a perfect sample test, that could nail a bad spring with those odds. They do or they don't. Luck of the draw.
Maybe, if the springs came sorted in the exact order they were made (highly unlikely), you could then spit out every fourth spring for a test. Then if there's a failure, grab the surrounding springs to test until there's no failure.
But they're most likely NOT in any kind of order. Only HUGE batches. Even then, it can vary quite drastically from one spring to the next. You could have a box of 100 springs, with 99 being bad. If the test spring just happens to be the ONE good spring... well, it's going through. However, the chances of you not grabbing a bad spring in that case is astronomically low.
Now, consider that the the count of bad springs vs good springs are most likely reversed... what are the chances of grabbing bad springs?
Also consider this... in every production, there's a margin. Whose to say, they found a couple of bad springs in a few tests... but it was within the margin. That in 100 test sample, they FOUND two bad springs. That could be within the margin of most companies. And to make it even more complicated, what if these "bad" springs were only marginally bad. That they were just technically out of spec, but would've worked for 10 years or longer.
For all we know, the only reason Honda is issuing the recall on those affected... is because in the year after their spec change, there were no complaints on the new ones, and only a handful more on the old. so to avoid more complaints, they voluntarily issued a recall.
In the end... all we are doing is jumping to conclusions. With you and a few others saying Honda messed up... and myself with a few others asking you to give them the "benefit of the doubt."
#99
02-18-2011, 05:17 PM
Obviously, I sound like I'm making excuses.
There were something like 100 complaints about the car. Let's multiply that 10 fold or more for those that DON'T complain. That's at least 1000 cars that could have already encountered the issue.
You go through how many springs PER car? I don't know for sure, at least one... possibly four (one per cylinder). How many cars were produced? Well, the recall is on 92,000 cars, that's something on the order of 100,000 to 400,000 springs. It probably only takes one spring to cause a complaint.
So the odds are 1 in 400 to 1 in 100. Each time they grab a spring.
So, you think grabbing random samples from the entire 400,000+ batch would guarantee encountering at least one "bad" spring?
There is no algorithm in the world that would give you a perfect sample test, that could nail a bad spring with those odds. They do or they don't. Luck of the draw.
Maybe, if the springs came sorted in the exact order they were made (highly unlikely), you could then spit out every fourth spring for a test. Then if there's a failure, grab the surrounding springs to test until there's no failure.
But they're most likely NOT in any kind of order. Only HUGE batches. Even then, it can vary quite drastically from one spring to the next. You could have a box of 100 springs, with 99 being bad. If the test spring just happens to be the ONE good spring... well, it's going through. However, the chances of you not grabbing a bad spring in that case is astronomically low.
Now, consider that the the count of bad springs vs good springs are most likely reversed... what are the chances of grabbing bad springs?
Also consider this... in every production, there's a margin. Whose to say, they found a couple of bad springs in a few tests... but it was within the margin. That in 100 test sample, they FOUND two bad springs. That could be within the margin of most companies. And to make it even more complicated, what if these "bad" springs were only marginally bad. That they were just technically out of spec, but would've worked for 10 years or longer.
For all we know, the only reason Honda is issuing the recall on those affected... is because in the year after their spec change, there were no complaints on the new ones, and only a handful more on the old. so to avoid more complaints, they voluntarily issued a recall.
In the end... all we are doing is jumping to conclusions. With you and a few others saying Honda messed up... and myself with a few others asking you to give them the "benefit of the doubt."
There were something like 100 complaints about the car. Let's multiply that 10 fold or more for those that DON'T complain. That's at least 1000 cars that could have already encountered the issue.
You go through how many springs PER car? I don't know for sure, at least one... possibly four (one per cylinder). How many cars were produced? Well, the recall is on 92,000 cars, that's something on the order of 100,000 to 400,000 springs. It probably only takes one spring to cause a complaint.
So the odds are 1 in 400 to 1 in 100. Each time they grab a spring.
So, you think grabbing random samples from the entire 400,000+ batch would guarantee encountering at least one "bad" spring?
There is no algorithm in the world that would give you a perfect sample test, that could nail a bad spring with those odds. They do or they don't. Luck of the draw.
Maybe, if the springs came sorted in the exact order they were made (highly unlikely), you could then spit out every fourth spring for a test. Then if there's a failure, grab the surrounding springs to test until there's no failure.
But they're most likely NOT in any kind of order. Only HUGE batches. Even then, it can vary quite drastically from one spring to the next. You could have a box of 100 springs, with 99 being bad. If the test spring just happens to be the ONE good spring... well, it's going through. However, the chances of you not grabbing a bad spring in that case is astronomically low.
Now, consider that the the count of bad springs vs good springs are most likely reversed... what are the chances of grabbing bad springs?
Also consider this... in every production, there's a margin. Whose to say, they found a couple of bad springs in a few tests... but it was within the margin. That in 100 test sample, they FOUND two bad springs. That could be within the margin of most companies. And to make it even more complicated, what if these "bad" springs were only marginally bad. That they were just technically out of spec, but would've worked for 10 years or longer.
For all we know, the only reason Honda is issuing the recall on those affected... is because in the year after their spec change, there were no complaints on the new ones, and only a handful more on the old. so to avoid more complaints, they voluntarily issued a recall.
In the end... all we are doing is jumping to conclusions. With you and a few others saying Honda messed up... and myself with a few others asking you to give them the "benefit of the doubt."
Go ahead and call me cynical, but I believe that Honda must "know" that the defective springs would fail at "X" degree...and evidently they decided the fallout and potential liability would be great enough to justify what is a relatively huge recall.
It's really simple. If it wasn't a problem, or isn't a problem, Honda wouldn't be engaging in this recall.
#100
02-18-2011, 05:25 PM
The weather was finally nice here in NY for a change, and I had to drive my mother somewhere. She asked if my car had a sunroof. I said that for sixteen thousand dollars I'm lucky it has any roof at all. This is about the least expensive Honda and it's a great car.
Parts break. Parts wear out unpredictably. Raw materials vary from batch to batch.
Honda's recalling the car to fix it.
Many car companies fight recalls. Some prefer to fix the problem- to spend money on techs rather than on attorneys and public relations people in an attempt to keep their costs down.
Yeah, they're recalling a small piece of the engine. So what? Stuff breaks. You can wait for the perfect car just like you can wait for the perfect woman.
You can't afford the perfect car, and you're not good enough for the perfect woman.
If you don't like your new Honda I'm sure there's somebody who will pay a pretty high percentage of your purchase price to have it, and you can go buy a Ford.
Parts break. Parts wear out unpredictably. Raw materials vary from batch to batch.
Honda's recalling the car to fix it.
Many car companies fight recalls. Some prefer to fix the problem- to spend money on techs rather than on attorneys and public relations people in an attempt to keep their costs down.
Yeah, they're recalling a small piece of the engine. So what? Stuff breaks. You can wait for the perfect car just like you can wait for the perfect woman.
You can't afford the perfect car, and you're not good enough for the perfect woman.
If you don't like your new Honda I'm sure there's somebody who will pay a pretty high percentage of your purchase price to have it, and you can go buy a Ford.