Honda break in is 600 miles, here is some info http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/p...000O00100A.pdf

 

Wow.. I don't even know where to begin with some of you.

mahout and SilverBullet, as usual, are on the right track.

This is a complex topic with a lot of variables and variance between applications.

But as a rule: you need to perform some serious engine braking, WOT and vary the RPM, especially in the first 30 minutes of life, this includes immediately after first start up. You need to use the cross-etch hone on your rings while you have it "rough" and you need to break in your cam(s) immediately as well.

Before any of that, before you even put the timing belt on you should take a drill to your oil pump and prime that pig first, because you need to keep the RPM cycling high-low-high and at least above 1500rpm right off the bat (which most cam manufacturers will tell you).

I have to finish a paper for a MacroEcon class but I will expound more hopefully before the end of the evening..

 

Care to guess what else is useless? That entire post. You have a lot to learn.


Exactly right, engine braking is another key component.

When I do a complete rebuild everything gets refreshed.

Bearings fasteners anything that might wear or yield over time. During assembly everything gets coated with the appropriate lubes like ARPs fastener paste and Royal Purple's assembly syrup. Then I prime the oil pump with a drill. I break in every motor using dino oil or a specific break in oil like Brad Penn's.

With new cams and new rotating assembly with new rings, bearings etc. you want to oscillate the rpm while in neutral till everything is up to temperature, and this can take a while. Remember, just because the coolant is up to temp, the oil might not be, it takes much longer.

Do not let it idle or rest under 1500rpm for any length of time. When warm go for a light cruise for 20 minutes or so, then return idle down to cool off and shut her off, change the oil and hot-torque everything.

Then for the next hundred miles accelerate more aggressively and engine brake in 2nd 3rd and 4th as often as possible.

Change the oil again, and now the break them in for the next 1000miles however you would normally drive the car, perhaps redlining and engine braking more often than you typically would. Change your oil againe and this time change the filter as well.

After that enjoy less blowby, crankcase fouling, greater thermal efficiency and more power.

But what would I know I only build, drive, tune and race these things












And here's a good shot of that cross-hatching from the honing I was talking about. This block was overbored for larger pistons because after 129k on the original I wanted to refresh everything and go forged internals while it was apart:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

Thanks DiamondStarMonsters. I appreciate your kind and generous comments. That was very helpful to the discussion.

Well, I've done a few myself. Mostly aircraft. Not many race engines though.

You see, this thread started out as a question about MPG improvements in Honda Fits after break-in, branched off into questions about carbon buildup and now has been taken into a treatise about breaking in a rebuilt race engine, which has nothing at all to do with the topic here. Your post, although interesting, was not relevant to the subject, which is about breaking in new Fits.

I am glad you have a talent and a job and love what you do. I am sure there are some forums on rebuilding race engines on the Internet.

OP, the answer is that better MPG after engine break-in is not a myth.

Specboy, your last post was spot on. Well thought out and exactly right. Good work.

 

Beg to disagree again. Lugging an engine creates very well the reasons for carbon build up. Low temperatures and static gas flow thanks to the erratic valve operation and non-smooth intake air stream Besides the bearing and other mechanical sresses involved on mechanical parts, especially valve seats.

 

That one pictured was actually a rebuild of a 129k stock longblock that went into a street car.

You started off with condescending and absolute statements, some of which like your paragraph on carbon buildup contradict eachother between the first sentence and the last...

Better MPG is not a myth we agree there, and that is what I was intimating when discussing less blow by and higher thermal efficiency, I would imagine someone who works on aerospace components would have picked up on that.

The Fit's engine is constructed in a similar fashion to the one pictured and is affected by the same laws of physics so in fact it was relevant.

I broke in the Fit's engine the same way as any other street car that is going to see spirited driving.

I have great compression across all 4 cylinders 195-195-190-195psi with little to no lifter tick, even when cold.

The method I described above is a great way to break in a given street duty ICE engine running on pump gas.

 

What you have described Mr. DiamondStarMonsters, is a rebuilt engine break-in found in almost every Chiltons manual ever written, and has been standard procedure for the last sixty years. It is not new knowledge and it is certainly not relevant to the OP question. Please explain in detail how any of the following statements you posted relate to breaking in a new Honda Fit engine just purchased from a dealership and sitting in your driveway.

If you do any of these steps with a new Fit, you will immediately void the warranty.

I am glad you do them, because they should be done. On a rebuilt engine.

 

Well let's see, instead of addressing the substance of my posts or mahout's response to your absolutisms you are going to nit pick the obvious couple steps that are unneccesary on a pre-primed, OE assembled longblock... everything else is still pertinent.

Also, if it was as established as you suggest why are there still two distinct schools of thought on the matter? No Chilton's, Haynes, whatever manual I have found tells you to drive it like you stole it after the first oil change.. Yet that is what is supposed to be done.

When I got my GD3 it was, according to the dealer, one of the first cars off the ship in the last batch of GD3's sent over from Japan in USDM get up.

They told me it had zero hours on the engine, whether or not that is true I drained the oil it came with and allegedly had zero miles on, in the lot in front of the service bays and filled up with a specific break-in oil. Then let it get up to temp, and I immediately began the sequence as I described above, omitting the unnecessary parts.

I could smell all the finish/paint/coatings and gaskets burning in over the first few days and like any other new motor all that went away in short order. After 1000miles I had 195-195-190-195 across all 4, and its probably only marginally higher now that things are fully worn in and seated at 22,000 miles.

The procedures above are still very relevant to the Fit, especially those still in the break in stage, or have been baby'd by fuel conscious owners their whole lives.

Sounds like you're just upset that that we pointed out some of the inconsistencies in your posts.

 

This needs to be addressed as well, because while you start off correct, that last bit in bold doesn't make any sense

Lamda 1.0v, which is stoich for any fuel, is 9.8x:1AFR for E85 versus 14.1x:1AFR for E10 pump gas. which is roughly ~45% more fuel mass needed per unit volume of oxygen. At WOT the gap closes a bit because you can run leaner in terms of lambda on using gas scale AFRs like most people with widebands do. But many instead choose to run a more aggresive timing scheme than you would be able to get away with on gas and use extra fuel as a margin of safety.

Why would you need less fuel and suddenly just completely reverse the linear trend you were seeing once you reach a 50/50 ratio of Ethanol/Gasoline?

 

i have an 09 fit sport MT with 33k....had it since new....my average is 35.4

 

DiamondStarMonsters, I admire your verbose defense of the indefensable.

Let us see if I can explain this step by step. In your latest post you ask:

Who on earth said you would need less fuel? When your mileage declines you need more fuel, not less to cover the same distance (e.g. BTU production would be less with ethanol). At high blend levels, such as E-85 flex fuel, where the ethanol becomes the majority of the blend by weight, the net lower energy of the blend becomes a factor, and the vehicle will get somewhat lower mileage (maybe 15% lower mileage, as opposed to conventional 87 octane gasoline). Most modern cars are capable of burning E-85 with no change in calibration, or detriment to fuel system, engine, or anti-pollution system components. An addition of 1% ethanol will decrease gas mileage by about .7% (some say 1 to 2%) up to a 50% mixture (a 35%+ decline in gas mileage) at which point it becomes a ethanol/gasoline mixture not a gasoline/ethanol mixture. I do not have data past the 50% point. That is a completely different study. The trend does not reverse in any way. In another way of putting it, you would need to purchase 35%+ more fuel to cover the same distance if it were a 50-50 ethanol, than you would if you could purchase 100% gasoline.
There is further problems with overheating and catalytic converters that I am not going into here.

As to you post prior to the last one, I attach the following from the owners manual for the 2010 Honda Fit:

Break-in Period
Help assure your vehicle's future reliability and performance by paying
extra attention to how you drive during the first 600 miles (1,000 km).

During this period:

Avoid full-throttle starts and rapid acceleration.
Avoid hard braking for the first 200 miles (300 km).
Do not change the oil until the scheduled maintenance time.
You should also follow these recommendations with an overhauled or exchanged engine, or when the brakes are replaced.

Nowhere does it say to take the car outside the bay of the dealership and proceed to change the factory break-in oil with one of your own choosing. You stand a good chance of voiding warranty if you do this. Believe me, dealerships are looking for any excuse to put the onus on the owner.

The whole point I was trying to make is that if you have been using 87 octane standard good ole American gasoline and the start using E-85 (as if we had a choice), you will experience a drop in gas mileage, and the problem ain't your car.

As an aside, do you have any ideas about why you have that compression drop on #3? Just curious.

 

Uh.. you said it:

"The mileage decline will be about .7% for every 1% of Ethanol used, up to about 50% at which point the decline stops"

Which implies that after blending from E10 to E50 your mileage would plateau indicating less fuel usage than the trend established earlier at ".7% for every 1% used"

For E70 E85 E98 your fuel economy gets worse as you get closer to pure ethanol because you are shifting away from E85s stoich at 9.8:1 and closer to the 8s for stoich which means both Max Rich Power and Max Lean Power shift to the richer end of the spectrum. This is in addition to the fact that you pointed out about lower comparable energy density per unit volume for Ethanol vs. Gas.

I use E85 all the time for performance forced induction applications. You need a substantial fuel system and SS filter elements to run it, even in a non-boosted car.

The Fit is not intended for flex fuel use and there could be serious consequences for it.

Your first concern before mileage would be running out of pump or injector if you tried to run a Fit on E85.

Check this out, remembering the Fit only has 185cc/min injectors:
baseinjectordata [ECMTuning - wiki]

Also if you bothered to actually read what I am typing you would have seen that those compression readings were taken at 1k miles, which is nearing the end of the break in period if done properly. The cyl 3 discrepancy was still only ~5psi off (the real number was closer to 3psi).. maybe there was slightly less oil on that cylinders walls when I took the reading, that was not a wet compression.

When I did the leak down they were all rock solid within a couple percent of eachother, as well. Now that I am at 22k miles with no lifter tick no stutter great fuel economy and great throttle tip in and transient response.

Also, I don't know where you live, but in Illinois or atleast Cook County, you could put the KraftWerks kit on through a professional installer, and before they could void your warranty they have to prove that any failure/damage was caused directly by the supercharger or the install. The final concern then would be passing emissions which is doable through some tuning.

This is how it works here, according to Muller Honda, in HP where I bought it. I am also friends with several mechanics and techs over there, they allow me to use their lifts some evenings on my other cars when they have space.

Also, if there is more zinc and other break-in minerals/compounds in the break-in oil I swapped for the OE stuff they have no room to complain.

I think you should try and absorb some of this before attacking me again and digging that hole deeper..

The only reasons they specify not to change out the first batch of oil is because of the additives and zinc not normally found in regular dino oil anymore. When you dump in another, arguably better break in fluid you are certainly not voiding any warranty.

Go talk to your Honda Techs, you will be surprised what you can get away with.

You can call me Chris by the way

 

I believe Honda does a run in at factory before shipping the motors or cars. They have plateau honed cylinders Plateau Cylinder Bore Finishes Plus Honda use Ion piston rings Piston ring - Patent 6139022 which these motors dont require the usual break in. Just keep rpms changing to vary engine loads so there is not a build up of heat. The ecu is also adjusting and building a short and long fuel trim plus timing curves. Honda relies on their engines to last a long time so just do what the manual says http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/p...000O00100A.pdf

 

Wow. To listen to some posts on here you would think Honda doesn't know crap about how to break in their own engines. What the heck, they have only been at the forefront of performance and durability in engine design for 40+ years. I'm much more likely to trust "Bobs Pretty Good Machine Shop" down the street.

 

Every engine has a different break in, when you rebuild your motor its different from stock because you dont have an electric dyno to run in the motor with out fuel and the new parts are different than the Honda machined stock parts. So the opinions are worthy of thought and most hold true. The tighter stock clearances dont requirer higher rpms to break in and modern engines can have a full load at 1000 rpm even when you are pressing ever so lightly on the pedal, thats why you vary loads and rpms to control heat.

 

that's good stuff. thanks.

since MPG varies depending on time of year, it's worth noting (as i did in the 1st post of this thread) my MPG was the same in the first 4 months of ownership as it was those same 4 months (nov-feb) 1 year later.
it was those numbers which prompted me to ask if "improved MPG after engine break-in is a myth?"

 

Sounds like you may not have set your rings properly if one year later you were returning the same mileage as you did on a fresh motor..

Also, the vast majority of OE engines comes with some running time, but there is a reason they tell you to be mindful of break-in driving procedure. Because it is not fully broken in usually till there are a couple thousand miles on the car, when performed properly. The first 20-30 minutes of life, and the first couple hundred milesmake all the difference.

If this time is wasted you could have 30k on the car, and still not be properly broken in, but now the fresh hone has been smoothed, and will do you no good anymore for setting the rings.

This sounds like the dilemma you are facing, by not seeing an increase in mileage a year later.. Do you drive conservatively?

 

It just shows your driving is consistent. What kind of gas and oil do you use?

 

Good post, Silverbullet.

Hi Chris.

First tank: 35.0 MPG
Second tank: 36.1 MPG
Third tank: 36.6 MPG

Around town, but not too much stop and go.

I love this little sucker.

 

I have a couple of engineering degrees and more than 40 years building and rebuilding engines. Not much difference of course.
Babying, as defined by running a engine with as little rpm as possible, is a myth to get good breakin. if you believe that being as easy as possible on new engines is OK then you are not following manufacturer's advivce.Course that also means don't be as hard on the engine as possible either.
Every manufacturer will instruct you to not baby the engine but run it at varying rpm and stress levels once the engine is fully warmed up to complete breakin and to not winderout all the time either for good reason. Its no longer the rings that is the problem, most come pretty well finished. Its the cylinder wall thats the issue.. Whether you know it or not the piston stroke does change with power and rpm and if you let an engine develop a 'ridge' at the rpm thats too slow once the rpm is increased over that the ridge becomes a 'wall' that does bad things the rings. Sure the change in measured in microinches but that ring sees it and whacks it very soundly. Its also why the first trip with your new car should be a hundred miles or more not a dozen 5 mile trips. Metallic surfaces indeed like to 'wear' together over a longer period than a series of shorter ones just as in any machine shop fabrication of devices.