what grade of gas do you give to your fit?
#161
10-01-2010, 02:55 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,428
Back in June I remember Silverbullet and I began wondering about the fuel issues being talked about here.
I'll say that this thread has identified more rational [EDIT: in a very irrational way]information than has appeared on this forum in the past six months.
As has been noted there are some good links provided and the indication is, opinions aside, that the L15 USDM ECU is sensitive to fuel being burned.
Question remains as to what is the give-away factor? How does it know that? What criteria is used to adjust the timing.
All I'm aware of is the knock-sensor. Good to only get you out of the low octane blues, not into the advantages of high octane power.
My feeling is that Honda protects the info because it is what makes an i-Vtech intelligent.
I'll say that this thread has identified more rational [EDIT: in a very irrational way]information than has appeared on this forum in the past six months.
As has been noted there are some good links provided and the indication is, opinions aside, that the L15 USDM ECU is sensitive to fuel being burned.
Question remains as to what is the give-away factor? How does it know that? What criteria is used to adjust the timing.
All I'm aware of is the knock-sensor. Good to only get you out of the low octane blues, not into the advantages of high octane power.
My feeling is that Honda protects the info because it is what makes an i-Vtech intelligent.
Knock, Lambda, IAT, Load, Barometric Pressure, Coolant Temp, Intake Air Temp,TPS, IDC, STFT, LTFT, CombinedFT and MAF/MAS Hz to name a few for the vast majority of modern cars.
For open loop:
Knock, Load, Barometric Pressure, Coolant Temp, Intake Air Temp and where ever that combination puts them in the MinOct/MaxOct tables once they have reached the OpenLoop thresholds.
The ECU just assumes to use the MaxOct tables in OpenLoop when there is no knock, which is usually entered at operating temp for WOT or High TPS/Load conditions.
Many ECUs pull 1* peak timing for every X (usually 5 or 10) degrees that coolant or air temp is above a max of Y (usually coolant >206-210*F degrees or intake air temp >95-105*). My Fit is the only car I cannot data log unfortunately because I don't have a standalone like in my other cars, one of which is approaching 19 years old.
What I can do to demonstrate this and what an ECU looks like on the inside is attached below:
www.ECMTuning.com.
Because Tom Dorris and Dave Mertz are really cool guys, you can download the ECMLink application to your computer and I can post data logs. If you read the tutorials and play around you can look at every conceivable option, and then some that is available inside even a 20 year old ECM unit.
So, click the downloads link at the top.
Then select either windows, mac or linux, all files are <22mb. You shouldn't need any drivers as none of you have a DSM ECU or a cable to connect your OBD2 ports to USB, let alone the driver box that translates for your laptop.
Open the program and you'll see there are a couple example files, if those aren't doing it for you, I can provide some logs of cars with different configurations so you can see the similarities and differences for yourself. I just can't seem to get them to post. They are .elg files so nothing else will open them.
There are also tutorials and demo videos on the page. There are explanations on many of the tabs in the ECMLink application that help you understand all the numbers and tables you will come across.
Steve, I recommend you take some time and go through this, it is indisputable irrefutable proof of concept.
It will be very enlightening.
Think "Allegory of the Cave"...If anyone has any questions, I'd be more than happy to walk through this with you guys.
Edit: The wiki is also full of great universal information, even for things like logging different UEGO sensors, how to use EGR solenoids or stock FPS solenoids to run your waste gate duty cycles like an EBC.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 10-01-2010 at 03:00 PM.
#162
10-01-2010, 02:58 PM
Had you bothered to read the Hondata link I posted earlier, you would have seen that adjusting timing has a lot to do with how much torque you can get out of an engine. It's pretty succinctly stated in the first few paragraphs, with more info as the article progresses.
If you guys would post a single objective reference (not subjective anecdotes), say, dyno runs on a GE8 on regular and premium (after running a few tanks through to flush both fuel and settings) this would be interesting. I don't think it's worth the cost of the test.
If you would post a single link to a single article suggesting an L15A, or any Honda (maybe not an S2000), or any car, whose engine is designed to run on regular fuel ran better on premium, this would be interesting.
Your (lack of) comments about Quicktrip's coming clean on the "The Premium Myth" speak more than anything else you've said.
#163
10-01-2010, 03:03 PM
There is a benefit under forced induction. We're talking about stock Fits, aren't we?
#164
10-01-2010, 03:12 PM
That is why certain engines come from the factory with the recommendation of premium as minimum, not because the OEs are in collusion with the oil companies to make a better buck.
If premium wasn't any better, than why do you need it in forced induction or high compression, where they are trying to create more power? If there was no real difference between premium and regular, I would run 87 in all my turbo cars.
If premium wasn't any better, than why do you need it in forced induction or high compression, where they are trying to create more power? If there was no real difference between premium and regular, I would run 87 in all my turbo cars.
The reason you would run premium in a forced induction car is to avoid knock. The reason these cars are more prone to knock is due to more fuel/air in the combustion chamber relative to normally aspirated cars. More pressure, more heat.
If the manufacturer doesn't recommend premium, it's not an issue.
There is a reason it is called premium, and it is not because it simply costs more. It costs more to refine because there is a different balance of constituents that determines what is premium and what is regular.
It is not just some ambiguous mix of hydrocarbons given a price on a whim because it seemed like a good idea at the time.
It is not just some ambiguous mix of hydrocarbons given a price on a whim because it seemed like a good idea at the time.
You have yet to show where higher octane than 87 has any benefit in a stock Fit or any car where the manufacturer doesn't specify it as recommended or required. Hang a blower on and the game has changed.
Last edited by Steve244; 10-01-2010 at 03:15 PM.
#165
10-01-2010, 03:35 PM
From the Hondata link. MBT means "Mean Best Torque", which means moar powahhh!
(emphasis mine)
So, if you're driving a Honda with Honda Knock Control, and you're not running the highest octane fuel they used to calibrate the ECU, it's much less likely you'll get Mean Best Torque from the engine. As a resident of Japan already noted in this thread, 91 AKI fuel (95 RON) is the lowest you can get in Japan, where the Fit was designed and manufactured for nearly the last decade (the Fit was introduced in 2001).
Comments?
Honda knock control is designed to cope with different quality fuel in a stock engine. It is important to remember these design parameters when tuning the knock control to suit your engine.
The knock control method Honda uses can seem complicated, but it helps to understand how an engine is tuned from the factory. All tuning is performed on an engine dyno using an automated process which tunes every location in each table. For VTC engines this includes each cam angle table as well.
The normal ignition tables contain MBT ignition advance values (black line above). An additional table contains the knock ignition limit values (blue line above). It is possible for the knock ignition limit to be lower than the MBT timing. In this case, the ECU will use the lower of the MBT timing and knock ignition limit timing so that the engine will make the most power possible, but will not knock. eg at 80 kPa manifold pressure the ignition table contains 30º, but the most timing the engine can run is 28º (from the knock ignition limit table). Thus the ECU may run less timing than the ignition tables at certain load/rpm points, even if it does not detect noise from the knock sensor. Note that this will not show as 'knock retard', as the ECU considers this to be a 'no knock' condition.
The knock control method Honda uses can seem complicated, but it helps to understand how an engine is tuned from the factory. All tuning is performed on an engine dyno using an automated process which tunes every location in each table. For VTC engines this includes each cam angle table as well.
1.Using a (very) high octane fuel, the engine is tuned to find the ignition timing which makes the most power. This is called 'mean best torque' (MBT) ignition timing.
2.Using 100 octane (RON) fuel, the engine is tuned to find the maximum spark advance before any knock is likely. This is called the 'knock ignition limit'.
3.Using 90 octane (RON) fuel, the engine is tuned to find the maximum spark advance at this octane. This gives the low octane knock limit ignition advance. The reason 90 and 100 octane is used (approx 85 and 95 octane r+m/2 method) is because this is the likely range of fuel octane the engine will used with.(snip)2.Using 100 octane (RON) fuel, the engine is tuned to find the maximum spark advance before any knock is likely. This is called the 'knock ignition limit'.
The normal ignition tables contain MBT ignition advance values (black line above). An additional table contains the knock ignition limit values (blue line above). It is possible for the knock ignition limit to be lower than the MBT timing. In this case, the ECU will use the lower of the MBT timing and knock ignition limit timing so that the engine will make the most power possible, but will not knock. eg at 80 kPa manifold pressure the ignition table contains 30º, but the most timing the engine can run is 28º (from the knock ignition limit table). Thus the ECU may run less timing than the ignition tables at certain load/rpm points, even if it does not detect noise from the knock sensor. Note that this will not show as 'knock retard', as the ECU considers this to be a 'no knock' condition.
So, if you're driving a Honda with Honda Knock Control, and you're not running the highest octane fuel they used to calibrate the ECU, it's much less likely you'll get Mean Best Torque from the engine. As a resident of Japan already noted in this thread, 91 AKI fuel (95 RON) is the lowest you can get in Japan, where the Fit was designed and manufactured for nearly the last decade (the Fit was introduced in 2001).
Comments?
#166
10-01-2010, 03:59 PM
Finally something comes forward. Sounds like a logical conclusion, and it's info I've never quite been able to put together. Thank you S&D you get a star.
#167
10-01-2010, 08:50 PM
93 Shell in the Fit right now!
So I'm doing the experiment and started this morning by pumping in a little over 9 gallons of 93 octane Shell. I for one don't think this is going to do anything for either perf or mileage but we'll see. Now, I'm going down to the Dragon next Thursday morning, early and I'll be traveling out of Chicago, through Indiana and into Kentucky for lunch, where I'll stop and eat and get gas. Now Indiana is pretty flat like the ride out of Chicago, through N Indiana and into Michigan like I've done 5x's already this year with the Fit. In those trips, the best I got was 42.8 mpg going back to Chicago and 39 mpg going back home to Detroit, so I've got some good, solid numbers to compare it too. Now its NOT scientific for sure since I'm not taking the same route but I will be driving in the right lane going 70 mph, where allowed, so that part of it will be spot on. One thing is different also and its the weather, its getting colder and like any other car out there, mileage drops when its cold. I've got Mobil 1 in the car right now which I had put in when I was back home 3 weeks ago and I netted 41.2 mpg on that leg of the trip.
Again, I just don't know how you could prove any perf gain without a dyno, the BUTT DYNO is a NO NO on this debate but the gas mileage being figured the "old school" way is tried and true and the numbers will not lie here, results to come down the road, stay tuned!
Again, I just don't know how you could prove any perf gain without a dyno, the BUTT DYNO is a NO NO on this debate but the gas mileage being figured the "old school" way is tried and true and the numbers will not lie here, results to come down the road, stay tuned!
#168
10-01-2010, 10:11 PM
I just got a second-hand 2007 Fit base. No idea what gas the previous owner was using and no mods to the car. It's driven in a hot climate environment (70s-110s deg F). Doesn't snow where I live.
So my questions are:
What octane gas should I use if the car is just used for daily driving?
If premium gas is better and does give better mileage, would I still benefit if the previous owner had always given it regular?
Is additives only in the premium gas?
Is there a difference between the additives of Chevron, 76, Shell, etc..?
I heard good things about Chevron, but not sure if their additives are the best or that they are all equivalent.
Is there anything else I have to watch out for since it gets so hot where I live?
Thanks for helping!
So my questions are:
What octane gas should I use if the car is just used for daily driving?
If premium gas is better and does give better mileage, would I still benefit if the previous owner had always given it regular?
Is additives only in the premium gas?
Is there a difference between the additives of Chevron, 76, Shell, etc..?
I heard good things about Chevron, but not sure if their additives are the best or that they are all equivalent.
Is there anything else I have to watch out for since it gets so hot where I live?
Thanks for helping!
#169
10-01-2010, 10:20 PM
87 will be fine for daily driving, but you will probably get a little more kick with 93. I haven't heard definitively that better mileage results from 93, but you may find it easier to stay near your personal best mileage with it.
There are additives in all gasoline, but many vendors supposedly use more additives in premium fuel. Yes, there is a difference between the additives of one versus another, but the differences are not known because these ingredients are trade secrets. They don't say exactly what the additives are.
Since it gets hot where you live, you might see more of a difference with 93 vs 87 octane. Try it and see what happens.
There are additives in all gasoline, but many vendors supposedly use more additives in premium fuel. Yes, there is a difference between the additives of one versus another, but the differences are not known because these ingredients are trade secrets. They don't say exactly what the additives are.
Since it gets hot where you live, you might see more of a difference with 93 vs 87 octane. Try it and see what happens.
#170
10-01-2010, 10:58 PM
From the Hondata link. MBT means "Mean Best Torque", which means moar powahhh!
(emphasis mine)
So, if you're driving a Honda with Honda Knock Control, and you're not running the highest octane fuel they used to calibrate the ECU, it's much less likely you'll get Mean Best Torque from the engine. As a resident of Japan already noted in this thread, 91 AKI fuel (95 RON) is the lowest you can get in Japan, where the Fit was designed and manufactured for nearly the last decade (the Fit was introduced in 2001).
Comments?
(emphasis mine)
So, if you're driving a Honda with Honda Knock Control, and you're not running the highest octane fuel they used to calibrate the ECU, it's much less likely you'll get Mean Best Torque from the engine. As a resident of Japan already noted in this thread, 91 AKI fuel (95 RON) is the lowest you can get in Japan, where the Fit was designed and manufactured for nearly the last decade (the Fit was introduced in 2001).
Comments?
Honda knock control is designed to cope with different quality fuel in a stock engine. It is important to remember these design parameters when tuning the knock control to suit your engine.
The knock control method Honda uses can seem complicated, but it helps to understand how an engine is tuned from the factory. All tuning is performed on an engine dyno using an automated process which tunes every location in each table. For VTC engines this includes each cam angle table as well.
The normal ignition tables contain MBT ignition advance values (black line above). An additional table contains the knock ignition limit values (blue line above). It is possible for the knock ignition limit to be lower than the MBT timing. In this case, the ECU will use the lower of the MBT timing and knock ignition limit timing so that the engine will make the most power possible, but will not knock. eg at 80 kPa manifold pressure the ignition table contains 30º, but the most timing the engine can run is 28º (from the knock ignition limit table). Thus the ECU may run less timing than the ignition tables at certain load/rpm points, even if it does not detect noise from the knock sensor. Note that this will not show as 'knock retard', as the ECU considers this to be a 'no knock' condition.
The knock control method Honda uses can seem complicated, but it helps to understand how an engine is tuned from the factory. All tuning is performed on an engine dyno using an automated process which tunes every location in each table. For VTC engines this includes each cam angle table as well.
1.Using a (very) high octane fuel, the engine is tuned to find the ignition timing which makes the most power. This is called 'mean best torque' (MBT) ignition timing.
2.Using 100 octane (RON) fuel, the engine is tuned to find the maximum spark advance before any knock is likely. This is called the 'knock ignition limit'.
3.Using 90 octane (RON) fuel, the engine is tuned to find the maximum spark advance at this octane. This gives the low octane knock limit ignition advance. The reason 90 and 100 octane is used (approx 85 and 95 octane r+m/2 method) is because this is the likely range of fuel octane the engine will used with.(snip)2.Using 100 octane (RON) fuel, the engine is tuned to find the maximum spark advance before any knock is likely. This is called the 'knock ignition limit'.
The normal ignition tables contain MBT ignition advance values (black line above). An additional table contains the knock ignition limit values (blue line above). It is possible for the knock ignition limit to be lower than the MBT timing. In this case, the ECU will use the lower of the MBT timing and knock ignition limit timing so that the engine will make the most power possible, but will not knock. eg at 80 kPa manifold pressure the ignition table contains 30º, but the most timing the engine can run is 28º (from the knock ignition limit table). Thus the ECU may run less timing than the ignition tables at certain load/rpm points, even if it does not detect noise from the knock sensor. Note that this will not show as 'knock retard', as the ECU considers this to be a 'no knock' condition.
We can argue all day about how many angels fit on a pinhead, but until someone provides evidence of torque improvement at any RPM it's just wishful rationalization. By evidence I mean dyno charts of premium vs regular rather than:
-or-
It's interesting that you can't provide a single set of dynamometer results showing what you're so willing to rationalize. On a normally aspirated Honda or any normally aspirated car.
I'll even allow you a little more kick or a tad more [power]. Might even go up as high as a smidgen. But not:
I'll leave you with my new favorite quote:
Originally Posted by quicktrip
Higher octane does not mean better quality and it will not result in more power, better performance, greater gas mileage or anything else.
#171
10-01-2010, 11:30 PM
Did you just agree with me? The Knock Ignition Limit is less spark advance, which reduces power.
#172
10-02-2010, 06:07 AM
I can't believe that someone that won't spend 2 or 3 bucks to see for himself if there is a difference in performance of the 2 grades of fuel one of which he admits to having a bias against expects another person to spend the money for 2 dyno runs to hopefully prove him right since he is the one with the bias.... I have not heard one person that uses 93 octane gas say they have a bias against 87..... Maybe my medication is getting to me this is to bizarre to actually be real..... If you want a more relevant comparison bump the speed of your test up to 85 or 90MPH using the cruise control on each grade of gas. 70 MPH isn't enough of a load on the engine that it would pull much timing even on 87 octane during cool weather.
Last edited by Texas Coyote; 10-02-2010 at 06:13 AM.
#173
10-02-2010, 10:00 AM
I can't believe that someone that won't spend 2 or 3 bucks to see for himself if there is a difference in performance of the 2 grades of fuel one of which he admits to having a bias against expects another person to spend the money for 2 dyno runs to hopefully prove him right since he is the one with the bias.... I have not heard one person that uses 93 octane gas say they have a bias against 87..... Maybe my medication is getting to me this is to bizarre to actually be real..... If you want a more relevant comparison bump the speed of your test up to 85 or 90MPH using the cruise control on each grade of gas. 70 MPH isn't enough of a load on the engine that it would pull much timing even on 87 octane during cool weather.
Hand on the bilbe for this report!
#174
10-02-2010, 10:33 AM
If, in fact, the ECU is in control you might need a few run cycles to let it catch up. Also be prepared for those who might say you're still carrying previous grade fuel in the tank. Hair splitting maybe but it will influence the seat of your pants.
I did a three tank rotation between reg and prem and could not detect an appreciable difference in performance or MPG. On the road driving, for me, is full of too many variables. I'm concerned with the long term averages I see in my daily routines and am looking for high MPG's.
From what I've gleaned from this thread I'm certain the ECU will adjust to my fuel choice as it's tuned to a low and high octanes. I don't know how it do that, but then again I really don't know how this keyboard I'm typing on will get my words out for everyone to read. It just do it.
Klasse - I'm very interested to hear back and would really like to grab the tail of the dragon. When my Alfa gets up and running I'll be bringing it down and chase your Fit around the turns with the top down - nothing sounds like a 69Spyder. I'm talking pasta NOT rice__
I did a three tank rotation between reg and prem and could not detect an appreciable difference in performance or MPG. On the road driving, for me, is full of too many variables. I'm concerned with the long term averages I see in my daily routines and am looking for high MPG's.
From what I've gleaned from this thread I'm certain the ECU will adjust to my fuel choice as it's tuned to a low and high octanes. I don't know how it do that, but then again I really don't know how this keyboard I'm typing on will get my words out for everyone to read. It just do it.
Klasse - I'm very interested to hear back and would really like to grab the tail of the dragon. When my Alfa gets up and running I'll be bringing it down and chase your Fit around the turns with the top down - nothing sounds like a 69Spyder. I'm talking pasta NOT rice__
#175
10-02-2010, 10:35 AM
I will not doubt or question your findings.... Like I said in my post that followed yours on page one, some can feel the difference and some don't.... A number of people that have decided to, buy the ticket, take the ride, discovered that the ECU on these cars take advantage of the additional octane by advancing the ignition timing easily an additional 6 to 8 degrees based on the ping detecting sensor function and adjustments to the air to fuel ratio based on the exhaust gas temperature sensor and O2 sensor info to the ECU.... This is technology that I learned of when working in the small engine lab of a community college almost 25 years ago. I bought my Fit because I knew it would be a fun car to drive and that being a Honda I could let it rev freely with the pedal down and not hurt it. If I am not able to feel a difference in performance from a product or modification it means nothing to me even if it is something that is said to register a power increase on a dyno.
Last edited by Texas Coyote; 10-02-2010 at 10:51 AM.
#176
10-02-2010, 11:41 AM
No.
The graphs you linked show the relationship between ignition timing and manifold pressure for different levels of octane.
They do not show the relationship between different levels of octane and torque at different RPM. That Hondata does not draw this conclusion is very significant. If there was a relationship, don't you think they would be quick to point this out by showing what their product is capable of doing without any other engine mods?
A relationship between octane and power cannot be inferred from this data.
The actual torque at a given RPM at Maximum Best Torque (MBT) for fuel at 100RON is not necessarily better or worse than the actual torque at MBT for 90RON.
These tables are interesting in that they provide an explanation why Hondas in general (these tables are for what, civics from the 90s?) can perform equally well on different grades of gasoline. This is something that was bothering me; less sophisticated cars would suffer from power loss if their timing was set for regular fuel only and premium fuel was used instead.
This limit exists for both levels of octane (the "Knock Ignition Limit" is for high octane and the "Low Octane Limit" is for low octane). Neither one is better than the other. They are "just right" for the octane levels described.
Less spark advance, and by this I mean less than ideal, does reduce power. However, it is the goal of the ECU's programming and data maps to maintain the ideal spark advance for any octane level fuel.
No where has it been stated that higher octane = more power (torque). In fact, the popular mechanics post I quoted states the opposite: more octane = less power "Racers have always known that using the lowest-octane-rated gasoline that doesn't melt the pistons provides the most power."
Different timing for a different octane is necessary to maximize power from regular or premium. This power level doesn't change though.
The only thing that will produce more power is a change to engine design enabling more fuel/air to be present in the combustion chamber.
You guys really need to post some empirical data to back your claims. But, you don't have any; otherwise you would have by now.
The graphs you linked show the relationship between ignition timing and manifold pressure for different levels of octane.
They do not show the relationship between different levels of octane and torque at different RPM. That Hondata does not draw this conclusion is very significant. If there was a relationship, don't you think they would be quick to point this out by showing what their product is capable of doing without any other engine mods?
A relationship between octane and power cannot be inferred from this data.
The actual torque at a given RPM at Maximum Best Torque (MBT) for fuel at 100RON is not necessarily better or worse than the actual torque at MBT for 90RON.
These tables are interesting in that they provide an explanation why Hondas in general (these tables are for what, civics from the 90s?) can perform equally well on different grades of gasoline. This is something that was bothering me; less sophisticated cars would suffer from power loss if their timing was set for regular fuel only and premium fuel was used instead.
This limit exists for both levels of octane (the "Knock Ignition Limit" is for high octane and the "Low Octane Limit" is for low octane). Neither one is better than the other. They are "just right" for the octane levels described.
Less spark advance, and by this I mean less than ideal, does reduce power. However, it is the goal of the ECU's programming and data maps to maintain the ideal spark advance for any octane level fuel.
No where has it been stated that higher octane = more power (torque). In fact, the popular mechanics post I quoted states the opposite: more octane = less power "Racers have always known that using the lowest-octane-rated gasoline that doesn't melt the pistons provides the most power."
Different timing for a different octane is necessary to maximize power from regular or premium. This power level doesn't change though.
The only thing that will produce more power is a change to engine design enabling more fuel/air to be present in the combustion chamber.
You guys really need to post some empirical data to back your claims. But, you don't have any; otherwise you would have by now.
Last edited by Steve244; 10-02-2010 at 11:59 AM.
#177
10-02-2010, 11:54 AM
Remember what was said that the faster the fuel burns the more power and more efficient the engine will be. Everyone assumes that regular burns faster, but its not true. The denser the fuel the faster it burns, because the molecules are closer together. The more carbon in regular at the end reacts slower so most of it gets sent out the exhaust for the emission system to handle and at the same time using more fuel to produce power because not all the regular fuel is burned. Premium causes the ecu to move in a more efficient map where the the timing is actually lower until later where it advances because of the faster flame speed, usually call acceleration where the ecu has less time to produce a perfect burn.
I was researching the Fit and ask my tuner friend and what I found out is that Hondata did work on this back before the Fit came to the USA, for some reason they stopped and nothing came out. I ask my tuner friend and he said theres no programmer for the Fit because the Fit has a smart ecu and the returns dont warrant a programmer.
I found this and it for the first generation Fits but its relevant Jazz VTEC Power
I was researching the Fit and ask my tuner friend and what I found out is that Hondata did work on this back before the Fit came to the USA, for some reason they stopped and nothing came out. I ask my tuner friend and he said theres no programmer for the Fit because the Fit has a smart ecu and the returns dont warrant a programmer.
I found this and it for the first generation Fits but its relevant Jazz VTEC Power
#178
10-02-2010, 12:03 PM
For closed loop:
Knock, Lambda, IAT, Load, Barometric Pressure, Coolant Temp, Intake Air Temp,TPS, IDC, STFT, LTFT, CombinedFT and MAF/MAS Hz to name a few for the vast majority of modern cars.
For open loop:
Knock, Load, Barometric Pressure, Coolant Temp, Intake Air Temp and where ever that combination puts them in the MinOct/MaxOct tables once they have reached the OpenLoop thresholds.
The ECU just assumes to use the MaxOct tables in OpenLoop when there is no knock, which is usually entered at operating temp for WOT or High TPS/Load conditions.
Many ECUs pull 1* peak timing for every X (usually 5 or 10) degrees that coolant or air temp is above a max of Y (usually coolant >206-210*F degrees or intake air temp >95-105*). My Fit is the only car I cannot data log unfortunately because I don't have a standalone like in my other cars, one of which is approaching 19 years old.
What I can do to demonstrate this and what an ECU looks like on the inside is attached below:
www.ECMTuning.com.
Because Tom Dorris and Dave Mertz are really cool guys, you can download the ECMLink application to your computer and I can post data logs. If you read the tutorials and play around you can look at every conceivable option, and then some that is available inside even a 20 year old ECM unit.
So, click the downloads link at the top.
Then select either windows, mac or linux, all files are <22mb. You shouldn't need any drivers as none of you have a DSM ECU or a cable to connect your OBD2 ports to USB, let alone the driver box that translates for your laptop.
Open the program and you'll see there are a couple example files, if those aren't doing it for you, I can provide some logs of cars with different configurations so you can see the similarities and differences for yourself. I just can't seem to get them to post. They are .elg files so nothing else will open them.
There are also tutorials and demo videos on the page. There are explanations on many of the tabs in the ECMLink application that help you understand all the numbers and tables you will come across.
Steve, I recommend you take some time and go through this, it is indisputable irrefutable proof of concept.
It will be very enlightening. Think "Allegory of the Cave"...
If anyone has any questions, I'd be more than happy to walk through this with you guys.
Edit: The wiki is also full of great universal information, even for things like logging different UEGO sensors, how to use EGR solenoids or stock FPS solenoids to run your waste gate duty cycles like an EBC.
Knock, Lambda, IAT, Load, Barometric Pressure, Coolant Temp, Intake Air Temp,TPS, IDC, STFT, LTFT, CombinedFT and MAF/MAS Hz to name a few for the vast majority of modern cars.
For open loop:
Knock, Load, Barometric Pressure, Coolant Temp, Intake Air Temp and where ever that combination puts them in the MinOct/MaxOct tables once they have reached the OpenLoop thresholds.
The ECU just assumes to use the MaxOct tables in OpenLoop when there is no knock, which is usually entered at operating temp for WOT or High TPS/Load conditions.
Many ECUs pull 1* peak timing for every X (usually 5 or 10) degrees that coolant or air temp is above a max of Y (usually coolant >206-210*F degrees or intake air temp >95-105*). My Fit is the only car I cannot data log unfortunately because I don't have a standalone like in my other cars, one of which is approaching 19 years old.
What I can do to demonstrate this and what an ECU looks like on the inside is attached below:
www.ECMTuning.com.
Because Tom Dorris and Dave Mertz are really cool guys, you can download the ECMLink application to your computer and I can post data logs. If you read the tutorials and play around you can look at every conceivable option, and then some that is available inside even a 20 year old ECM unit.
So, click the downloads link at the top.
Then select either windows, mac or linux, all files are <22mb. You shouldn't need any drivers as none of you have a DSM ECU or a cable to connect your OBD2 ports to USB, let alone the driver box that translates for your laptop.
Open the program and you'll see there are a couple example files, if those aren't doing it for you, I can provide some logs of cars with different configurations so you can see the similarities and differences for yourself. I just can't seem to get them to post. They are .elg files so nothing else will open them.
There are also tutorials and demo videos on the page. There are explanations on many of the tabs in the ECMLink application that help you understand all the numbers and tables you will come across.
Steve, I recommend you take some time and go through this, it is indisputable irrefutable proof of concept.
It will be very enlightening.
Think "Allegory of the Cave"...If anyone has any questions, I'd be more than happy to walk through this with you guys.
Edit: The wiki is also full of great universal information, even for things like logging different UEGO sensors, how to use EGR solenoids or stock FPS solenoids to run your waste gate duty cycles like an EBC.
#179
10-02-2010, 12:14 PM
My 96Deville was rated to burn premium fuel. Questions rose as to the use of regular. It was clearly determined that w/ the technology of the knock sensor that vintage of NorthStar engine would run perfectly fine on regular by adjusting the timing, however, a slight decrease in performance would be noted. This info is provided by GM, however, it was also confirmed on dyno by some serious motor heads.
Jump to my 2010 Fit. It is rated to run on regular fuel. With the technology of the knock sensor and the ECU it will adjust the timing to accommodate a higher rated fuel. With regular fuel being the bottom line, anything less and engine performance will suffer because timing will be out of the 'ideal' range - ECU cannot adjust, it's not been mapped.
So, when using a higher octane the engine will bump the timing to take advantage of the timing advance requirements of the fuel.
Question remains as to if this will result in more power to the drive wheels and/or if this will result in a more economical engine, i.e. better MPG's.
Am I getting this right????
BTW a quick peek at CadillacOwners will show you what a serious car forum looks like - NOT TO SAY we are not being serious, simply saying it is an excellent forum covering every aspect of Cadillac Ownership and extremely well organized.
Not bashing anything or anyone.
I love being a fitfreak_
Jump to my 2010 Fit. It is rated to run on regular fuel. With the technology of the knock sensor and the ECU it will adjust the timing to accommodate a higher rated fuel. With regular fuel being the bottom line, anything less and engine performance will suffer because timing will be out of the 'ideal' range - ECU cannot adjust, it's not been mapped.
So, when using a higher octane the engine will bump the timing to take advantage of the timing advance requirements of the fuel.
Question remains as to if this will result in more power to the drive wheels and/or if this will result in a more economical engine, i.e. better MPG's.
Am I getting this right????
BTW a quick peek at CadillacOwners will show you what a serious car forum looks like - NOT TO SAY we are not being serious, simply saying it is an excellent forum covering every aspect of Cadillac Ownership and extremely well organized.
Not bashing anything or anyone.
I love being a fitfreak_
#180
10-02-2010, 12:21 PM
Remember what was said that the faster the fuel burns the more power and more efficient the engine will be. Everyone assumes that regular burns faster, but its not true. The denser the fuel the faster it burns, because the molecules are closer together. The more carbon in regular at the end reacts slower so most of it gets sent out the exhaust for the emission system to handle and at the same time using more fuel to produce power because not all the regular fuel is burned. Premium causes the ecu to move in a more efficient map where the the timing is actually lower until later where it advances because of the faster flame speed, usually call acceleration where the ecu has less time to produce a perfect burn.
I was researching the Fit and ask my tuner friend and what I found out is that Hondata did work on this back before the Fit came to the USA, for some reason they stopped and nothing came out. I ask my tuner friend and he said theres no programmer for the Fit because the Fit has a smart ecu and the returns dont warrant a programmer.
I found this and it for the first generation Fits but its relevant Jazz VTEC Power