what grade of gas do you give to your fit?
#321
12-21-2010, 09:53 PM
I've read what you sent me. If you consider that selective reading, so be it.
I'll leave you with this, since you missed it the first time.
And this, directly from Honda, relating directly to the Fit:
"Does it help to use a fuel with a higher octane rating than required in my Owner's Manual?
Refer to your Owner's Manual for the pump octane number recommended for your Honda. Use of a lower-octane gasoline than recommended can cause a persistent, heavy metallic rapping noise in the engine that can lead to mechanical damage.
There is no advantage in using a fuel with a pump octane greater than that recommended in your Owner's Manual."
It also gives and in depth view of Honda's position on fuel additives and oxygenated fuels. You'd do well to read it. It's in Ownerlink under FAQ's.
I'll leave you with this, since you missed it the first time.
And this, directly from Honda, relating directly to the Fit:
"Does it help to use a fuel with a higher octane rating than required in my Owner's Manual?
Refer to your Owner's Manual for the pump octane number recommended for your Honda. Use of a lower-octane gasoline than recommended can cause a persistent, heavy metallic rapping noise in the engine that can lead to mechanical damage. There is no advantage in using a fuel with a pump octane greater than that recommended in your Owner's Manual." It also gives and in depth view of Honda's position on fuel additives and oxygenated fuels. You'd do well to read it. It's in Ownerlink under FAQ's.
#322
12-21-2010, 10:00 PM
I want to say thats not the owner manual to the FIT, I just stumble across this but you might have to read it twice Efficiency and Octane of various Gasoline blends from "pure" Gasoline to E85 - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com
#323
12-21-2010, 11:17 PM
My 79 Lincoln Town car that had the 400M 2V low compression engine was made to run on low octane fuel... It got 10 to 13 Mpg on the stuff but 15 to 18 on high octane unleaded fuel and had noticeably more power... As old as it was it had a knock sensor... My Fit owners manual simply says not to use fuel with an octane rating less than 87... I think it is extremely strange that someone would expect another person to spend the money to do a dyno run when they can spend much less and run a few tanks of high octane fuel and experience the difference their self... There have been numerous people that have and they are still using premium fuel here on FitFreak and on Honda Fit Forums also. Cool weather does make more difference in performance than premium fuel but both combined makes an even bigger difference..... It was 85 degrees here today, my car ran much better than it did this summer when it was 100 plus and my ignition timing was showing over 40 degrees advance on flat ground at 55 mph.. It would advance just as far and at times farther under the same conditions when it was stock and using 93 octane as well.... I have a book written by a Texas Ranger that patrolled on the Mexican border during the early years of prohibition in a Dodge with 3 other lawmen.. He claimed the reason they were able to overtake the cars driven by bad guys was due to having gasoline with Ethyl additive that was readily available to the public at that time... Doesn't it stand to reason that if a car was specifically meant to run on low octane fuel there would be no logical reason for it to be capable of ignition advancing far beyond what is safe that would likely cause pre-ignition using the low octane fuel?
#324
12-22-2010, 12:38 AM
The economist in me says that if the car got better mileage with higher-octane fuel Honda would specify it and advertise higher mileage. A lot of people look at the mileage numbers but very few ask what kind of gas the car requires before buying it.
#325
12-22-2010, 01:22 AM
I wonder what type of fuel is used by the guys that come up with the mileage figures.... I am sure that if the answer was anything other than regular the average American would opt out and get something that used the cheap stuff.. It is a small car and in their minds a 92 cubic inch engine should use regular since it has less than 300 horsepower and is made in a foreign country... They won't put regular in their Harleys that make less power in relation to displacement and have a much lower compression ratio but it has got image and that is what it's all about.. Like it has been said time and again in this thread, some people get better mileage with higher octane fuel and some don't and do fine on fuel that meets Honda's minimum octane requirement.... I'm the curious type and had to see for myself. My wife did the same when she bought a new Forester and she also uses premium... It is funny how the same people that make the most noise about how miserably slow Fits are also are a lot of those that put down people that put premium fuel in their cars and feel real good about their car's performance.
#326
12-22-2010, 01:26 AM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,428
I've read what you sent me. If you consider that selective reading, so be it.
I'll leave you with this, since you missed it the first time.
And this, directly from Honda, relating directly to the Fit:
"Does it help to use a fuel with a higher octane rating than required in my Owner's Manual?
Refer to your Owner's Manual for the pump octane number recommended for your Honda. Use of a lower-octane gasoline than recommended can cause a persistent, heavy metallic rapping noise in the engine that can lead to mechanical damage.
There is no advantage in using a fuel with a pump octane greater than that recommended in your Owner's Manual."
It also gives and in depth view of Honda's position on fuel additives and oxygenated fuels. You'd do well to read it. It's in Ownerlink under FAQ's.
I'll leave you with this, since you missed it the first time.
And this, directly from Honda, relating directly to the Fit:
"Does it help to use a fuel with a higher octane rating than required in my Owner's Manual?
Refer to your Owner's Manual for the pump octane number recommended for your Honda. Use of a lower-octane gasoline than recommended can cause a persistent, heavy metallic rapping noise in the engine that can lead to mechanical damage. There is no advantage in using a fuel with a pump octane greater than that recommended in your Owner's Manual." It also gives and in depth view of Honda's position on fuel additives and oxygenated fuels. You'd do well to read it. It's in Ownerlink under FAQ's.
Simple question.. have either of you ever actually tuned an ECU? If the answer is no, STFU. I do, all the time. On cars I daily drive and those of others.
There is more to premium fuel than just higher octane. But because neither of you will take the time to follow any of the links or read the damn thread I won't waste any more effort on you two.
I leave you with this:
The best thing you could do, if you are actually interested in learning this is downloading ECMLink, Hondata is very similar. They both use the principles of actual airmass in grams per cylinder per revolution to determine load.
So the computer is using the Ideal Gas law, {PV=nRT} that you learned in highschool to manage the engine. Now the downside to this, which I run into often because Speed Density can be a cruel mistress, is any time you change something that effects your VE table, like turbo, intake manifold, exhaust, cams, charge piping, intercooler, blow off valve/compressor bypass valve etc. You are forced to recalibrate your VE table or your AFRs/Lambda maps will be all fubared, consequently so will your timing, and your idle will be very rough or surge till you figure it out.
If your injector deadtimes are wrong, the car might not start once it gets to temperature and the fuel enrichment requirements as well as the pooled fuel from injector spray before shutdown will be changing your perceived AFRs causing you to run super lean or rich while cranking and keeping you from firing up. But once you do get your settings figured out, the car will be so much more consistent from day to day. The trick is to try and use, when possible the stock MAF/MAS sensor to populate your VE table. This will save you potentially a couple weeks of swearing and banging your head on the dash. Ask me how I know
Everything I have tried to explain about internal ECU operation is confirmed by that article, and the Hondata Knock article posted earlier. So if you go back and read all my posts, these tables and that article will make a lot more sense. I do use acronyms like VE (volumetric efficiency or pumping losses) and IDCs (Injector Duty Cycles) which are how long the injector is staying open and terms like dead time which is the injector pulsewidth, or the delay between sending the signal to start spraying and when fuel actually comes out. So if there are any phrases, abbreviations like MaxOct, or acronyms like MAP, UEGO etc. please let me know and I would be more than happy to help, PM me email me whatever, if you are cool and need tuning help I will give you my cell # and I will try and walk you through over the phone if I have the time between work school and my own wheeled money pits. If you have questions, ask!
If you look around in this shot you may recognize some of those terms:
If you are paying attention you can see that his TPS @ 104% is not calibrated and he is showing only 5.3* of spark advance so he is seeing lots of knock and the car is running very rich for safety because of this. The Front O2 reading .78v is pretty rich assuming ~600*C EGTs, and the rear O2 which is probably 36" from the engine is showing even richer at .72v, because the car is running a conservative tune for safety, which would correlate with his mere 5* of WOT timing at >6000rpm.
The IATs are in the 40*C range, which is fine, but getting warm. Because he is at WOT (TPS @104% tells us that) and pulling a full 1.2" of Hg it would suggest he has a very restrictive intake system.
At least with his IDCs in the mid 60s hes got one healthy thing going for him!
Max acceptable IDC by most tuners who care about their cars and customers is ~80-85% IDCs
If you recall I mentioned earlier how ECUs pull timing and richen the mixture to be safe when fuel quality or atmospheric conditions are poor?
This is a great example of a MinOct table tune:
5* peak timing and .78v lambda @ 6200rpm and 104%TPS (WOT.) The engine is trying to save it's self.
Hondata stage IV allows you to use basic Speed Density and tune through your lap top.
In the timing maps in the article for instance:
The y-axis is load in terms of pressure
The x-axis is engine speed
The z-axis is timing.
Load is ultimately calculated in speed density in internal ECU units which are often arbitrary and are different from car to car. For instance like a common set of values is a unitless scale from 0.33 LoadFactor at idle and 30kPa to 3.55 LoadFactor under max boost allowed in the tables which in this case is almost 300kPa, not bad for a mostly stock ECU from a non turbo car! As you get used to tracking the datalogs and watching what cells are being used at specific engine behaviour things will make more sense. Till you experience it first hand this will remain a nebulous concept and no amount of reading can really break it down unfortunately. All you can do is jump in and hold your breath till you surface again. It is one of the best ways to learn how to tune though. But time consuming. And as I learned you would be best to have a calibrated and streetable daily driver if you are going to tackle speed density for the first time.
If you are in the position to use after market MAP, IAT and UEGO sensors you will learn that placement is critical.
Your MAP needs to be after that throttle body because it MUST register boost and vacuum. The IAT has to be no farther from the engine than in the upper intercooler piping or throttle body elbow. If the IAT is placed in the manifold it needs a phenolic spacer to prevent heat soaking skewing readings. In the case of the Wideband/Narrowband UEGOs completely opposite what you will read on the internet. AEM offers .pdf files to explain how to read, interpret, and properly datalog it's 5v and 1.2v output inline sensors and hooking up the UEGO gauge controllers to your ECU for logging from there as well. There are also tables explaining the relationship between lambda voltage and AFR scales of different fuels.
For instance:
Gasoline with 10% ethanol - Stoich is 14.13:1AFR at lambda 1.0v
Ethanol, pure - Stoich is ~9.4:1AFR at lambda 1.0v
Methanol, pure - Stoich is ~6.x:1AFR at lambda 1.0v
Lambda if you haven't figure it out is more of an excess air (lean condition) sensor.
The curves in the rich areas we are concerned with for max performance are subject to wild fluctuations with change in EGTs. So at 400*C and lambda .7v could be 9:1AFR on gasoline, and at 800*C it could be 11:1AFRs on gasoline.
For max power an NA motor should be looking for 12.5:1AFR gasoline at MBT, and a turbo motor would be more in the neighborhood of 11.3-11.7:1AFRs gasoline scale at MBT.
For best fuel economy, at the sacrifice of emissions cleanliness (excess NOx compounds) you would aim for 15.4:1AFRs gasoline at idle and up to 3000rpm and 100kPa (before boost/spool picks up on a turbo car.)
For instance, for quickest and most accurate feed back on exhaust composition you want your UEGO mounted in the downpipe less than 18" from the turbine housing of the turbo. Or within 12" of the exhaust collector on a NA motor.
This is where you relearn the phrase "you gotta pay to play" because if you are running to lean or too rich you will be going through spark plugs and ~$75 Bosch/Denso UEGO sensors often. But in the end a good tune is worth it. Especially when you can confidently say you tuned it yourself!
While a dyno is nice, a test n tune day at a drag course or even a secluded stretch of highway can work, though any serious speeding for WOT tuning (which is the easiest by the way) should be done on a closed circuit or a dyno. I want to emphasize that most Hondas will be above legal highway speeds by the time you get into 3rd gear. So with that disclaimer out there, be smart your life and others are at risk, it is not just about tickets. Speed doesn't kill, it's the sudden stop.
A couple main points that make a slight difference between most standalones and the Hondata unit appear to be that you can only run up to 3 bar sensor or 29.4psi boost, and thats after you have both sets of 60 cell additions flashed to your ROM. Nor does it specify if we can adjust injector deadtimes based on battery voltage, it doesn't mention anything about hot or cold start enrichment routines, or cold start idle rpm, CoastingFuelCutOffset so you can tune out any clutch-in stalling by changing where the injectors turn on and off in relation to deceleration and throttle position sensor voltage output.
You can adjust your global fuel settings for different injectors and their respective deadtimes, but they did not say if you can tune your injectors individually based on the needs of each cylinder like some computers can. Or if there is a limit on how big of an injector the ecu can compensate for in relation to the stock size injectors.
It is important to point out that injector deadtimes are done in microseconds and not milliseconds like the article states. The table below closely resembles the laptop application on a full AEM or MegaSquirt style standalone ECU, like you would see in other cars.
This is a read out of user selected "displayed values" for comparison between data logs and parameter changes. Hondata will allow you to log up to 48 channels though, which is not bad. They did not specify if you can alter settings in real time with the engine on like you can in AEM/MegaSquirt/ECMLink, but I am not willing to rule that out just yet.
Below you have RPM, Speed, Intake Air Temp, Timing, Gear and Oxygen sensor volts.
Since the oxygen sensor only puts out a range of 0-1.2v we can deduce it is a Nernst Cell exhaust gas oxygen sensor, and the signal it puts out are direct lambda values. A Nernst Cell is often referred to as a Narrowband Oxygen sensor, as opposed to a Wideband like you here turbo guys talking about when they are discussing things like Air Fuel Ratios (AFRs) which are described in terms like stoich ratio for E10 gasoline is 14.13:1AFR, like when I was trying to explain gas scale AFRs earlier when commenting on rich vs lean mixtures.
A quick glance at this log should tell you that the driver was doing WOT tuning during capture. You can see 6 full 2-4 gear pulls going from ~50-100mph in the 2 minutes shown in the frame. You can also see the time jump back up as he coasts down in gear. Notice how the O2 sensor fluctuates between .20v and .85v, but it sits and stays at ~.80-85v during WOT. That means his ECU is doing what it should, though he should probably lean it out 10 or 15 points because he is just fouling his plugs and UEGOs running that rich.
Not to mention how much more power he would make if he could lean out and bring his timing back down to the 23-26* advance range. But for some reason his computer is running super conservative values, which could be attributed to high timing targets and the air temp never going below 90F and approaching ~120F in some places.
The last exception being the hexadecimal coding, but the Stage IV Hondata unit operates on the exact same principles with comparable flexibility to the ECMLink application I posted a couple pages back.
So if you are truly interested in learning what is going on, I will be more than happy to email you some logs and walk you through them. If there are any FitFreaks in the Chicago area that are sincerely interested I will take you for a spin in one of my DSMs so you can see what the Hondata Stage IV laptop application includes.
I am currently re-calibrating my ECU so you might get to see first hand ALL of the concepts I am discussing here, because I have just finished installing all new bigger 2.75" aluminum charge piping, MAP sensor (upgraded from 3.5bar to 5.2bar) intercooler, FIC BlueMax 1450cc injectors, -8AN braided stainless steel fuel line and swapped out my stock intank pump for a walbro 190lph, (because the stocker couldn't keep up with my inline bosch -044 pump), and a new larger nozzle (675cc) for my meth kit
This table is a little more straight forward in that you can see on the X-axis that the table changes units from millibars to psi at ~1000mb. That is because they have added the full 120 cells for boosted applications. All NA tunes will never reach these cells.:
But before you get to any of that, and my little rant above is just the tip of the iceberg, you need to give the ECU as much configuration information as possible. This is something that gets overlooked somehow, maybe because people get excited when they see all the tabs and menus, graphs and pretty rainbow colored tables
Things like:
MAF/MAS type
MafComp for variances in MAF Raw Hz between individual sensors
MafClamp functions
Transmission gearing
Weight
Throttle body
TPS calibration
Idle Switch
FIAV
MAP/IAT/Baro sensor out put range
Narrowband simulation
Injector size
Base fuel pressure
Airflow smoothing
Open loop thresholds
AirTempweighting
STFT and o2 feedback
Load Scale
Injector Battery Adjust
Base tip in TIP adjust and in some cases many more.
Hondata looks a little more simple than some though, but at a cost of less flexibility.
So the computer is using the Ideal Gas law, {PV=nRT} that you learned in highschool to manage the engine. Now the downside to this, which I run into often because Speed Density can be a cruel mistress, is any time you change something that effects your VE table, like turbo, intake manifold, exhaust, cams, charge piping, intercooler, blow off valve/compressor bypass valve etc. You are forced to recalibrate your VE table or your AFRs/Lambda maps will be all fubared, consequently so will your timing, and your idle will be very rough or surge till you figure it out.
If your injector deadtimes are wrong, the car might not start once it gets to temperature and the fuel enrichment requirements as well as the pooled fuel from injector spray before shutdown will be changing your perceived AFRs causing you to run super lean or rich while cranking and keeping you from firing up. But once you do get your settings figured out, the car will be so much more consistent from day to day. The trick is to try and use, when possible the stock MAF/MAS sensor to populate your VE table. This will save you potentially a couple weeks of swearing and banging your head on the dash. Ask me how I know
Everything I have tried to explain about internal ECU operation is confirmed by that article, and the Hondata Knock article posted earlier. So if you go back and read all my posts, these tables and that article will make a lot more sense. I do use acronyms like VE (volumetric efficiency or pumping losses) and IDCs (Injector Duty Cycles) which are how long the injector is staying open and terms like dead time which is the injector pulsewidth, or the delay between sending the signal to start spraying and when fuel actually comes out. So if there are any phrases, abbreviations like MaxOct, or acronyms like MAP, UEGO etc. please let me know and I would be more than happy to help, PM me email me whatever, if you are cool and need tuning help I will give you my cell # and I will try and walk you through over the phone if I have the time between work school and my own wheeled money pits. If you have questions, ask!
If you look around in this shot you may recognize some of those terms:
If you are paying attention you can see that his TPS @ 104% is not calibrated and he is showing only 5.3* of spark advance so he is seeing lots of knock and the car is running very rich for safety because of this. The Front O2 reading .78v is pretty rich assuming ~600*C EGTs, and the rear O2 which is probably 36" from the engine is showing even richer at .72v, because the car is running a conservative tune for safety, which would correlate with his mere 5* of WOT timing at >6000rpm.
The IATs are in the 40*C range, which is fine, but getting warm. Because he is at WOT (TPS @104% tells us that) and pulling a full 1.2" of Hg it would suggest he has a very restrictive intake system.
At least with his IDCs in the mid 60s hes got one healthy thing going for him!
Max acceptable IDC by most tuners who care about their cars and customers is ~80-85% IDCsIf you recall I mentioned earlier how ECUs pull timing and richen the mixture to be safe when fuel quality or atmospheric conditions are poor?
This is a great example of a MinOct table tune:
5* peak timing and .78v lambda @ 6200rpm and 104%TPS (WOT.) The engine is trying to save it's self.
Hondata stage IV allows you to use basic Speed Density and tune through your lap top.
In the timing maps in the article for instance:
The y-axis is load in terms of pressure
The x-axis is engine speed
The z-axis is timing.
Load is ultimately calculated in speed density in internal ECU units which are often arbitrary and are different from car to car. For instance like a common set of values is a unitless scale from 0.33 LoadFactor at idle and 30kPa to 3.55 LoadFactor under max boost allowed in the tables which in this case is almost 300kPa, not bad for a mostly stock ECU from a non turbo car! As you get used to tracking the datalogs and watching what cells are being used at specific engine behaviour things will make more sense. Till you experience it first hand this will remain a nebulous concept and no amount of reading can really break it down unfortunately. All you can do is jump in and hold your breath till you surface again. It is one of the best ways to learn how to tune though. But time consuming. And as I learned you would be best to have a calibrated and streetable daily driver if you are going to tackle speed density for the first time.
If you are in the position to use after market MAP, IAT and UEGO sensors you will learn that placement is critical.
Your MAP needs to be after that throttle body because it MUST register boost and vacuum. The IAT has to be no farther from the engine than in the upper intercooler piping or throttle body elbow. If the IAT is placed in the manifold it needs a phenolic spacer to prevent heat soaking skewing readings. In the case of the Wideband/Narrowband UEGOs completely opposite what you will read on the internet. AEM offers .pdf files to explain how to read, interpret, and properly datalog it's 5v and 1.2v output inline sensors and hooking up the UEGO gauge controllers to your ECU for logging from there as well. There are also tables explaining the relationship between lambda voltage and AFR scales of different fuels.
For instance:
Gasoline with 10% ethanol - Stoich is 14.13:1AFR at lambda 1.0v
Ethanol, pure - Stoich is ~9.4:1AFR at lambda 1.0v
Methanol, pure - Stoich is ~6.x:1AFR at lambda 1.0v
Lambda if you haven't figure it out is more of an excess air (lean condition) sensor.
The curves in the rich areas we are concerned with for max performance are subject to wild fluctuations with change in EGTs. So at 400*C and lambda .7v could be 9:1AFR on gasoline, and at 800*C it could be 11:1AFRs on gasoline.
For max power an NA motor should be looking for 12.5:1AFR gasoline at MBT, and a turbo motor would be more in the neighborhood of 11.3-11.7:1AFRs gasoline scale at MBT.
For best fuel economy, at the sacrifice of emissions cleanliness (excess NOx compounds) you would aim for 15.4:1AFRs gasoline at idle and up to 3000rpm and 100kPa (before boost/spool picks up on a turbo car.)
For instance, for quickest and most accurate feed back on exhaust composition you want your UEGO mounted in the downpipe less than 18" from the turbine housing of the turbo. Or within 12" of the exhaust collector on a NA motor.
This is where you relearn the phrase "you gotta pay to play" because if you are running to lean or too rich you will be going through spark plugs and ~$75 Bosch/Denso UEGO sensors often. But in the end a good tune is worth it. Especially when you can confidently say you tuned it yourself!
While a dyno is nice, a test n tune day at a drag course or even a secluded stretch of highway can work, though any serious speeding for WOT tuning (which is the easiest by the way) should be done on a closed circuit or a dyno. I want to emphasize that most Hondas will be above legal highway speeds by the time you get into 3rd gear. So with that disclaimer out there, be smart your life and others are at risk, it is not just about tickets. Speed doesn't kill, it's the sudden stop.
A couple main points that make a slight difference between most standalones and the Hondata unit appear to be that you can only run up to 3 bar sensor or 29.4psi boost, and thats after you have both sets of 60 cell additions flashed to your ROM. Nor does it specify if we can adjust injector deadtimes based on battery voltage, it doesn't mention anything about hot or cold start enrichment routines, or cold start idle rpm, CoastingFuelCutOffset so you can tune out any clutch-in stalling by changing where the injectors turn on and off in relation to deceleration and throttle position sensor voltage output.
You can adjust your global fuel settings for different injectors and their respective deadtimes, but they did not say if you can tune your injectors individually based on the needs of each cylinder like some computers can. Or if there is a limit on how big of an injector the ecu can compensate for in relation to the stock size injectors.
It is important to point out that injector deadtimes are done in microseconds and not milliseconds like the article states. The table below closely resembles the laptop application on a full AEM or MegaSquirt style standalone ECU, like you would see in other cars.
This is a read out of user selected "displayed values" for comparison between data logs and parameter changes. Hondata will allow you to log up to 48 channels though, which is not bad. They did not specify if you can alter settings in real time with the engine on like you can in AEM/MegaSquirt/ECMLink, but I am not willing to rule that out just yet.
Below you have RPM, Speed, Intake Air Temp, Timing, Gear and Oxygen sensor volts.
Since the oxygen sensor only puts out a range of 0-1.2v we can deduce it is a Nernst Cell exhaust gas oxygen sensor, and the signal it puts out are direct lambda values. A Nernst Cell is often referred to as a Narrowband Oxygen sensor, as opposed to a Wideband like you here turbo guys talking about when they are discussing things like Air Fuel Ratios (AFRs) which are described in terms like stoich ratio for E10 gasoline is 14.13:1AFR, like when I was trying to explain gas scale AFRs earlier when commenting on rich vs lean mixtures.
A quick glance at this log should tell you that the driver was doing WOT tuning during capture. You can see 6 full 2-4 gear pulls going from ~50-100mph in the 2 minutes shown in the frame. You can also see the time jump back up as he coasts down in gear. Notice how the O2 sensor fluctuates between .20v and .85v, but it sits and stays at ~.80-85v during WOT. That means his ECU is doing what it should, though he should probably lean it out 10 or 15 points because he is just fouling his plugs and UEGOs running that rich.
Not to mention how much more power he would make if he could lean out and bring his timing back down to the 23-26* advance range. But for some reason his computer is running super conservative values, which could be attributed to high timing targets and the air temp never going below 90F and approaching ~120F in some places.
The last exception being the hexadecimal coding, but the Stage IV Hondata unit operates on the exact same principles with comparable flexibility to the ECMLink application I posted a couple pages back.
So if you are truly interested in learning what is going on, I will be more than happy to email you some logs and walk you through them. If there are any FitFreaks in the Chicago area that are sincerely interested I will take you for a spin in one of my DSMs so you can see what the Hondata Stage IV laptop application includes.
I am currently re-calibrating my ECU so you might get to see first hand ALL of the concepts I am discussing here, because I have just finished installing all new bigger 2.75" aluminum charge piping, MAP sensor (upgraded from 3.5bar to 5.2bar
) intercooler, FIC BlueMax 1450cc injectors, -8AN braided stainless steel fuel line and swapped out my stock intank pump for a walbro 190lph, (because the stocker couldn't keep up with my inline bosch -044 pump), and a new larger nozzle (675cc) for my meth kitThis table is a little more straight forward in that you can see on the X-axis that the table changes units from millibars to psi at ~1000mb. That is because they have added the full 120 cells for boosted applications. All NA tunes will never reach these cells.:
But before you get to any of that, and my little rant above is just the tip of the iceberg, you need to give the ECU as much configuration information as possible. This is something that gets overlooked somehow, maybe because people get excited when they see all the tabs and menus, graphs and pretty rainbow colored tables
Things like:
MAF/MAS type
MafComp for variances in MAF Raw Hz between individual sensors
MafClamp functions
Transmission gearing
Weight
Throttle body
TPS calibration
Idle Switch
FIAV
MAP/IAT/Baro sensor out put range
Narrowband simulation
Injector size
Base fuel pressure
Airflow smoothing
Open loop thresholds
AirTempweighting
STFT and o2 feedback
Load Scale
Injector Battery Adjust
Base tip in TIP adjust and in some cases many more.
Hondata looks a little more simple than some though, but at a cost of less flexibility.
The above is one of a couple dozen posts I made earlier in the thread which you numbskulls should get familiar with.
Go back and read the whole thread. Go find my post on the ECMTuning freeware, download, read the wiki, I can email you .pdfs and go through the tutorials on the website. No one in this entire thread that understands how ECU's actually work or have actual calibration experience have been supporting the side suggesting that there are no advantages to premium.
The same reasons it is desirable in a "performance engine" apply to our "economy engine" even though the terms are arbitrary unless we are talking about atkinson cycles and sterling engines and 6cycle engines.
And to avoid anymore retarded bickering about how I bring up boost a couple times in the above post, keep this in mind..
Every NA ECU is tuned the same way an FI ECU is tuned.
The only difference is that there are no load cells above 100kPa on the VE maps. That is basically it. Everything that applies to boost applies to NA.
But neither of you have even an elementary understanding of the hows and whys of a modern ECU or OE Calibration so I expect this to be overlooked for more links from the renowned tuners at Kwik Trip and the FTC.
So Brian and M3 what are your tuning credentials that allow you to spout half truths and speculation so confidently and assertively?
Nothing I am discussing is to be dismissed as theory or guessing. It is established fact learned from correspondence with OE Calibrators, Race engineers and various tuning shops along with a healthy dose of personal experience through trial and error.
On the days when I am out of state and cannot run the Shell 93 (E10) or the BP 93 (no ethanol) I typically have access to and have to use 87 or 89 the difference is readily apparent. I can feel timing being pulled in high load low rpm or high load part throttle tip in.
Do you even know what knock sounds like? Do you know what knock retard feels like?
If you guys knew what the hell MinOct and MaxOct timing/fueling maps were I wouldn't have to practically break this down in crayon for you.
87 oct in the Fit puts you on the lowest available octane maps. The damn manual says you WILL see damage on fuels lower than US 87oct, it should be a clue.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 12-22-2010 at 01:30 AM.
#327
12-22-2010, 01:52 AM
Your going to way too much trouble for a couple of guys that could simply spend a few bucks and check out whether there is difference in their cars or not....I read all of your post and it led me to conclude that I need a Weapon R intake manifold and have my throttle body enlarged.... I need more intake flow.
#328
12-22-2010, 02:08 AM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,428
Your going to way too much trouble for a couple of guys that could simply spend a few bucks and check out whether there is difference in their cars or not....I read all of your post and it led me to conclude that I need a Weapon R intake manifold and have my throttle body enlarged.... I need more intake flow.
I am afraid you are right.
But if I can help at least one passerby lurking and reading this, it is worth it.You are one of the few in the Fit community who would definitely benefit from a bigger TB and manifold.
But I have my concerns about the Weapon R Intake manifold, and it seems like other guys with big builds on here are having trouble. Specifically Felix. A few others have had major issues as well:
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...-manifold.html
Here is one that came crooked from the manufacturer:
But if you want something solid and serious I can get you in contact with some premier fabricators..
If the intake pipe is putting so much stress that it is tearing through the weld over time with vibration.. a few hump hose couplers would help alleviate the problem. However, I have only rarely seen damage like that on a N/A engine thats never had a nitrous backfire. Usually it was due to questionable manifold construction.
Also, a big square plenum, long runner manifold is the worst of both worlds.. Choke up top on the long runners, low velocity down low through the big plenum.
Ideally on a small displacement 4cyl that is looking to make better power overall, a tapered rounded plenum with intermediate length (5-9" depending on goals) stacks would be the way to go.
YouTube - dsm intake manifold simulation
Fluids don't like sharp corners.
YouTube - CFD simulation of vortex shedding
If you want a nice manifold for your Fit, call up ShearerFab, JMFab or DVDT. Respectively, Ron, Jim or Albert will get you something just as "blingy" that will actually benefit you in some tangible form. Just tell them what you plan to do with it.
Now if money was no option this is the route to go:
Or for the more serious track guys:
Also if your IMs are getting hot, and you can feel a drop in power with heat soak, look into getting a phenolic or teflon manifold gasket:
How to Make A Teflon/Phenolic Intake Manifold and Throttle Body Gaskets/Spacers
PSI Flange Isolation Kits
Also, a big square plenum, long runner manifold is the worst of both worlds.. Choke up top on the long runners, low velocity down low through the big plenum.
Ideally on a small displacement 4cyl that is looking to make better power overall, a tapered rounded plenum with intermediate length (5-9" depending on goals) stacks would be the way to go.
YouTube - dsm intake manifold simulation
Fluids don't like sharp corners.
YouTube - CFD simulation of vortex shedding
If you want a nice manifold for your Fit, call up ShearerFab, JMFab or DVDT. Respectively, Ron, Jim or Albert will get you something just as "blingy" that will actually benefit you in some tangible form. Just tell them what you plan to do with it.
Now if money was no option this is the route to go:
Or for the more serious track guys:
Also if your IMs are getting hot, and you can feel a drop in power with heat soak, look into getting a phenolic or teflon manifold gasket:
How to Make A Teflon/Phenolic Intake Manifold and Throttle Body Gaskets/Spacers
PSI Flange Isolation Kits
#329
12-22-2010, 09:29 AM
I used to work with a guy who talked about Bill Clinton a lot, back when Clinton was president.
But he never said "Bill Clinton" or "President Clinton" or "The President" he always called him Bubba or Slick Willy.
And I noticed that since his bias was so evident, I stopped listening to what he was saying.
So, folks, (some folks on this site), if your goal is to win me over with logical arguments and facts, it might be best not to start your posting by calling me an idiot or numbskull or whatever, but just to state your qualifications and facts. Because when you insult me you lose credibility.
(and my name's not Brian, either, it's Shaun)
That said, to get back to the issue of whether higher octane fuel is 'better' or leads to more power and/or more fuel economy:
You're right, I've never tuned an ECU.
I studied auto mechanics for two years in high school, but that was before ECUs.
But I do know that when the oil companies started advertising/implying that premium fuel was 'better' they got slammed by the government and now they put out propaganda saying that there's no reason to put in higher octane than your car needs. They may say stuff like "Our super-duper octane helps keep your engine clean" but then so does their 87.
And I'm reasonably certain that most people (not 'most people on this forum' but 'most people in general') shopping for cars don't ask about fuel. Many of them have no idea what to put in their cars even after they buy them. But many, if not a majority, of car buyers do look at stated fuel economy- it's in the ads, in the brochures and on the window sticker.
If you're still convinced that most car buyers look at all the relevant details like fuel, well, ask your insurance broker what percentage of new car owners called to compare insurance costs for different cars before choosing one. The number's pretty low.
That said, I'd be happy to try higher octane fuel to see what effect it has, which shouldn't be too difficult given the mileage computer in the car. However a direct comparison is not that easy because conditions vary tremendously day-to-day. Temperature, wind, atmospheric pressure, tire pressure, traffic...
Oh, and yes, I know what knock sounds like, and if I ever had a car that knocked I'd use higher-octane fuel. The last car I had that knocked was a 1969 Dodge.
But he never said "Bill Clinton" or "President Clinton" or "The President" he always called him Bubba or Slick Willy.
And I noticed that since his bias was so evident, I stopped listening to what he was saying.
So, folks, (some folks on this site), if your goal is to win me over with logical arguments and facts, it might be best not to start your posting by calling me an idiot or numbskull or whatever, but just to state your qualifications and facts. Because when you insult me you lose credibility.
(and my name's not Brian, either, it's Shaun)
That said, to get back to the issue of whether higher octane fuel is 'better' or leads to more power and/or more fuel economy:
You're right, I've never tuned an ECU.
I studied auto mechanics for two years in high school, but that was before ECUs.
But I do know that when the oil companies started advertising/implying that premium fuel was 'better' they got slammed by the government and now they put out propaganda saying that there's no reason to put in higher octane than your car needs. They may say stuff like "Our super-duper octane helps keep your engine clean" but then so does their 87.
And I'm reasonably certain that most people (not 'most people on this forum' but 'most people in general') shopping for cars don't ask about fuel. Many of them have no idea what to put in their cars even after they buy them. But many, if not a majority, of car buyers do look at stated fuel economy- it's in the ads, in the brochures and on the window sticker.
If you're still convinced that most car buyers look at all the relevant details like fuel, well, ask your insurance broker what percentage of new car owners called to compare insurance costs for different cars before choosing one. The number's pretty low.
That said, I'd be happy to try higher octane fuel to see what effect it has, which shouldn't be too difficult given the mileage computer in the car. However a direct comparison is not that easy because conditions vary tremendously day-to-day. Temperature, wind, atmospheric pressure, tire pressure, traffic...
Oh, and yes, I know what knock sounds like, and if I ever had a car that knocked I'd use higher-octane fuel. The last car I had that knocked was a 1969 Dodge.
#330
12-22-2010, 11:36 AM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,428
Hi Shaun,
I'm not here to win you over. Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one. Not all experience is equivalent.
What I, and others are trying to tell you and M3 is that while you guys may feel one way or another about this, the fact of the matter is you don't actually understand the depth of what the rest of us are discussing.
But that sure didn't stop you from telling us how you imagine it works.
So I may be a dick about this, but I am not making it up as I go like you two.
If you are trying to tell me there is propaganda in chemical reactions, you are a lunatic.
We have a high compression engine by anybodys standard for a spark ignition power plant. Higher octane is without ambiguity more stable.. because it has a higher octane content. So lets ignore the other constituents of various brands and grades of gasoline and focus soley on the hydrocarbons.
Higher octane proportion is more stable, which means it has a higher required activation energy before the reaction sets off. This means we can start the reaction sooner.
So, more spark advance means a bigger swept area during combustion, which means the flame front can accelerate longer and that more thermal energy is converted into mechanical energy. If we are lucky the L15A might return >30% Thermal "Q."
The less fuel needed to cool and slow the reaction, like is necessary when running 93 v 87, the less you use and hence higher efficiency. Not only that but to a certain extent running leaner generates more power because the combustion is more complete and burns hotter.
But if you don't drive in a manner that takes advantage of this, there is no point. Some people here can and do, and they have shared their results and that which they see on their scan tools.
So, I am glad you got two years of automotive education in highschool, but we are talking about Modern ECUs and and Fuel.
What the majority of us have been saying is this:
87 is perfectly fine. 89, 91, 93 and up are better up to the point that the computer cannot take advantage of the fuel. The upper limit is going to be 99RON, or US equivalent ~95oct (R+M)/2, based on what is available in various markets that the Fit/Jazz is sold in.
What advantages you see depend on how you use the car.
When I get my AEM FIC unit installed, I intend to start feeding the 93/Toluene + Meth I run in my other cars, just to see what the figures are and what MinOct/MaxOct maps it lets me use.
We have 50* of spark angle adjustment to take advantage of. Most of us on 87 would be lucky to break into the 40s on a warm day under low throttle cruise conditions and as much as 17-19* advance under WOT and high load..
Some people on 93, like Texas Coyote, Klasse Act, Silver Bullet and I are seeing 43-47* during cruise and 24-27* under load.
I am having a third bung installed for a UEGO on the downpipe because the nernst cell "narrowband" oxygen sensors most cars come with do not correct for heat. With 400*C exhaust gasses they can read 30 points richer than at 600*C. So a Wideband UEGO set up for lambda read out should set that straight and provide yet more accurate data on what the target AFRs the car is looking for on a given fuel and atmospheric conditions.
I'm not here to win you over. Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one. Not all experience is equivalent.
What I, and others are trying to tell you and M3 is that while you guys may feel one way or another about this, the fact of the matter is you don't actually understand the depth of what the rest of us are discussing.
But that sure didn't stop you from telling us how you imagine it works.
So I may be a dick about this, but I am not making it up as I go like you two.
If you are trying to tell me there is propaganda in chemical reactions, you are a lunatic.
We have a high compression engine by anybodys standard for a spark ignition power plant. Higher octane is without ambiguity more stable.. because it has a higher octane content. So lets ignore the other constituents of various brands and grades of gasoline and focus soley on the hydrocarbons.
Higher octane proportion is more stable, which means it has a higher required activation energy before the reaction sets off. This means we can start the reaction sooner.
So, more spark advance means a bigger swept area during combustion, which means the flame front can accelerate longer and that more thermal energy is converted into mechanical energy. If we are lucky the L15A might return >30% Thermal "Q."
The less fuel needed to cool and slow the reaction, like is necessary when running 93 v 87, the less you use and hence higher efficiency. Not only that but to a certain extent running leaner generates more power because the combustion is more complete and burns hotter.
But if you don't drive in a manner that takes advantage of this, there is no point. Some people here can and do, and they have shared their results and that which they see on their scan tools.
So, I am glad you got two years of automotive education in highschool, but we are talking about Modern ECUs and and Fuel.
What the majority of us have been saying is this:
87 is perfectly fine. 89, 91, 93 and up are better up to the point that the computer cannot take advantage of the fuel. The upper limit is going to be 99RON, or US equivalent ~95oct (R+M)/2, based on what is available in various markets that the Fit/Jazz is sold in.
What advantages you see depend on how you use the car.
When I get my AEM FIC unit installed, I intend to start feeding the 93/Toluene + Meth I run in my other cars, just to see what the figures are and what MinOct/MaxOct maps it lets me use.
We have 50* of spark angle adjustment to take advantage of. Most of us on 87 would be lucky to break into the 40s on a warm day under low throttle cruise conditions and as much as 17-19* advance under WOT and high load..
Some people on 93, like Texas Coyote, Klasse Act, Silver Bullet and I are seeing 43-47* during cruise and 24-27* under load.
I am having a third bung installed for a UEGO on the downpipe because the nernst cell "narrowband" oxygen sensors most cars come with do not correct for heat. With 400*C exhaust gasses they can read 30 points richer than at 600*C. So a Wideband UEGO set up for lambda read out should set that straight and provide yet more accurate data on what the target AFRs the car is looking for on a given fuel and atmospheric conditions.
#331
12-22-2010, 11:47 AM
If you're not here to win me over, are you here to make yourself feel better? Fine. The internet doesn't belong to me and neither does this website. But if you do want to prove your point you might consider that calling me a lunatic, not for telling you that I imagine how it works but for considering all the other information available- from Honda, from the oil companies (who have a vested interest in selling us more expensive gas) and from the government, might be counterproductive to getting people to believe you know what you're talking about. I didn't make anything up as you claimed I did. I stated facts.
Anyway, I pose this question- if my car isn't knocking and I haven't modified it in any way, then do you still believe there's a benefit (power and/or fuel economy) to running it on higher octane fuel?
Or would the ECU simply control for that and end up back in the same place?
Anyway, I pose this question- if my car isn't knocking and I haven't modified it in any way, then do you still believe there's a benefit (power and/or fuel economy) to running it on higher octane fuel?
Or would the ECU simply control for that and end up back in the same place?
#332
12-22-2010, 12:02 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,428
Anyway, I pose this question- if my car isn't knocking and I haven't modified it in any way, then do you still believe there's a benefit (power and/or fuel economy) to running it on higher octane fuel?
Or would the ECU simply control for that and end up back in the same place?
Or would the ECU simply control for that and end up back in the same place?
You don't have to actually knock for the ECU to pull timing and richen the mixture.
On most ECUs once IATs climb above 115*F you lose 1-2 degrees spark advance and trend 5-8 AFR points richer for every 10*F increase. Same thing if coolant temp goes above 200-210*F. There are many other factors that will cause the engine to run more conservatively.
Many can be resolved through better fuel.
If none of these affect you, but you still choose to pay $2-3/tank extra like some of us, you will be giving your engine extra top cylinder lubes and detergents that oil companies don't often bother with in their "regular" grades.
Also, in the case of BP "Ultimate" they are one of the few who are using better fuel stock and Triptane/Xylene/Toluene instead of E10 or E15 to bolster there (R+M)/2 figures.
See what works for you with a scan gauge. Identical engines can produce significantly different results under the same circumstances. The universe is funny like that. There is theory, and then there is practice.
Try it. If you like it and find it advantageous, cool. If not, don't buy it. Do not ASSume however that because you did not see or feel benefit that they do not exist and that it is "propaganda"
I do not work for an oil company, what do I have to gain personally by telling you about premium v. regular? I just build, tune, race and repair for myself, friends, family and clients, there is no ulterior motive.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 12-22-2010 at 04:01 PM.
#334
12-23-2010, 10:45 PM
Lets us know what you notice, your mpg,engine should be more consistent. When it gets warmer try premium. Actually 89 is very popular around here, I ve talk to a few people and the mid grade Bp is always empty.Most BP stations has 3 tanks and drops 3 different fuels.
#335
12-24-2010, 11:02 AM
On a half a tank of gas its an extra .50, not calling you out for being a cheap ass or needing a spray of WD40 or anything, but I hear too many people say premium is too expensive when its really not. I used to run Shell 93 but after taking Silver Bullets advice I'm running BP 93 and have noticed the difference in perf and mileage.I'm looking forward to the spring because with the BP 93 in there, my average milege should go up to about 38-39 and on the highway trips I'm expecting 45 mpg (best before was 43 mpg but that was with my stock tires/wheels) With my new set up I've gotten 41.3 mpg as a best, so not a big hit for the gains I've gotten in the handling/looks department.
DSM and SB have made some solid points and with DSM inparticular doing the dyno tuning and providing us with that epic post earlier, the facts speak for themselves. Early on with this, I too thought 87 was best because Honda tuned the engine to run on this but think about it, Honda is about less expensive and 87 is less expensive and alright for people to run but the fact is that 93 is better. My car shifts into its gears so much better, you can actually FEEL it, like its got an old B&M shiftkit sometimes
#336
12-24-2010, 11:14 AM
Honda's not paying for the gas, you are.
I recently filled my tank (new car- fourth tank including what came with the car) and the mileage seems a few mpg higher.
For what seems to me to be about the same types of local trips.
What's the difference in fuel?
Probably nothing- unless you count the fact that the last two tankfuls came from NJ and this one from NY.
All 87 octane.
So what was the difference?
My guess-- the trips weren't as similar as I thought they were.
(don't know what the NJ gas was but the NY pump said 10% ethanol).
I recently filled my tank (new car- fourth tank including what came with the car) and the mileage seems a few mpg higher.
For what seems to me to be about the same types of local trips.
What's the difference in fuel?
Probably nothing- unless you count the fact that the last two tankfuls came from NJ and this one from NY.
All 87 octane.
So what was the difference?
My guess-- the trips weren't as similar as I thought they were.
(don't know what the NJ gas was but the NY pump said 10% ethanol).
#337
12-24-2010, 11:31 AM
My ride started out in the 34-35mpg range, but after 3k miles it was edging up to 37. At 13k I'm seeing 38-39, all on regular fuel. Now with the winter blend and cold temps it's down again.
I think you'll find that as you break-in the engine and master the art of driving a Fit the MPG's will rise to a point then level off. Consistent driving techniques will pay off more than running premium fuel.
HoHoHo
K_C
I think you'll find that as you break-in the engine and master the art of driving a Fit the MPG's will rise to a point then level off. Consistent driving techniques will pay off more than running premium fuel.
HoHoHo
K_C
#338
12-24-2010, 11:33 AM
Ethanol gas is everywhere but RFG is not. Your car will run fine on 87 because it runs richer under load. MBT is when the ecu uses the least amount of fuel which is 14.7 set by the manufactures of all cars. Premium allows it to run in MBT at higher loads compared to regular. You can give a little gas and have engine loads over 70 percent and the ecu would have richen it up to 11 to 1 air fuel mixtures. What premium does is allows the engine to run like the manufacture made it to do.
Premium has a faster flame speed but is allowed to be heated up making more pressure with out knock.
Premium has a faster flame speed but is allowed to be heated up making more pressure with out knock.
#339
12-24-2010, 12:33 PM
My ride started out in the 34-35mpg range, but after 3k miles it was edging up to 37. At 13k I'm seeing 38-39, all on regular fuel. Now with the winter blend and cold temps it's down again.
I think you'll find that as you break-in the engine and master the art of driving a Fit the MPG's will rise to a point then level off. Consistent driving techniques will pay off more than running premium fuel.
HoHoHo
K_C
I think you'll find that as you break-in the engine and master the art of driving a Fit the MPG's will rise to a point then level off. Consistent driving techniques will pay off more than running premium fuel.
HoHoHo
K_C
#340
12-24-2010, 01:02 PM
17 pages and no conclusive data. That right there should tell you something.
FACT: Honda says the minimum fuel for the car is 87. NOWHERE does it say "91 is better, but 87 works." Quit reading into this.
FACT: Honda says running a higher octane than outlined in the owner's manual has no benefit. See my post above from the Honda Ownerlink.
We've seen lots of pretty charts and graphs showing how the ecu compensates for octane (and other things). What we haven't seen is an actual, real world scientific accounting. There have been at least a dozen requests for dyno charts, and none have been posted. The ONLY way to come to a conclusive finding is to test the vehicle under conditions where ONLY the fuel is changed. Same altitude, temperature, tires, even brand of fuel. Tie it down, run 87, check results. Switch fuels, run again, check results. Post results. Fin.
Will you be able to chart timing changes from the ECU? Of course. Does this translate to actual performance benefits that can be justified by the extra expense?* All currently available evidence says "no." Butt dynos and anecdotal evidence aside. But it's your coin, do what you like.
Someone should call "Mythbusters"
Merry Christmas y'all!
*If premium is 5-7% more expensive, then you should be able to show a comparable increase in HP or MPG, not an increase that can only be shown by using software and complex mathematics. Occam's Razor should apply.
FACT: Honda says the minimum fuel for the car is 87. NOWHERE does it say "91 is better, but 87 works." Quit reading into this.
FACT: Honda says running a higher octane than outlined in the owner's manual has no benefit. See my post above from the Honda Ownerlink.
We've seen lots of pretty charts and graphs showing how the ecu compensates for octane (and other things). What we haven't seen is an actual, real world scientific accounting. There have been at least a dozen requests for dyno charts, and none have been posted. The ONLY way to come to a conclusive finding is to test the vehicle under conditions where ONLY the fuel is changed. Same altitude, temperature, tires, even brand of fuel. Tie it down, run 87, check results. Switch fuels, run again, check results. Post results. Fin.
Will you be able to chart timing changes from the ECU? Of course. Does this translate to actual performance benefits that can be justified by the extra expense?* All currently available evidence says "no." Butt dynos and anecdotal evidence aside. But it's your coin, do what you like.
Someone should call "Mythbusters"
Merry Christmas y'all!
*If premium is 5-7% more expensive, then you should be able to show a comparable increase in HP or MPG, not an increase that can only be shown by using software and complex mathematics. Occam's Razor should apply.