Only because you are intentionally misconstruing what I was saying to mean 20hp over the rated 109. There were conditions placed on what I was trying to explain, but clearly this is too complex for you.

On page one of this thread you admit to not understanding why your wife's Pontiac was throwing DTCs. You have no direct experience in tuning any ECU aside from turning the key on a factory flash so there is no weight to your arguments.

On another post you berate someone for taking an advertisement at face value, and then tout a quote from QuickTrip over and over. So again, you have no actual understanding of these words and concepts you re so flippantly tossing out.

 

Try learning how to read.

 

Here's something you might find interesting...

Posted here this afternoon:

"I just returned from the dragstrip.... "
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-engine-modifications-motor-swaps-ecu-tuning/59382-i-just-returned-dragstrip.html#post918108

This same guy was running 17.75 @ 77.5 completely stock last year...

Hmm, maybe just maybe the ECU's decisions and thought process are far more involved than you feel or believe. There's more to it than just the Knock Sensor, FFS. By software engineer do you mean like, quickbooks pro?

I tune cars I have to drive long distances and in several climates. I am VERY picky about my tune, and on my personal vehicles and friends cars, we spend months refining, and the end product is smooth and seemless approaching or comparable to an OE calibration.

Some cases like with my ~20 year old Plymouth, just plugging in a new base tune after removing the old ECU yields smoother operation on first start. All I had to do was lean things out and copy in the 2004 Evo 8 GSR Min/MaxOct tables. The Laser's stock fuel table had some cells aiming to hit 9:1AFRs To compensate for this, the factory timing table was very aggressive and sloppy, with rapid changes between cells. This was back when I was on the bigger of the stock turbos (14B), stock SMIC, injectors and charge piping.

I change my tune in some aspect EVERYTIME I get in my DSMs. Same thing for S-AFC tuners.. except they have no choice in the matter

I've tried to explain the how's & why's but you don't want to hear it. That's fine, but stop cluttering up the thread. I am NOT telling you to run 93, or that you can't thrash the car on 87.

 

OBC is showing a consistent 36.0 right now after filling up with the 93 Shell and its been cold, hmmm, maybe there's something to this....we'll see

 

DSM I have a few questions,

1. How does cam phasing apply in timing and tuning?

2. If you put premium in after running regular doesn't it average the short fuel trim with the long fuel trim, so timing wont be full advance until it averages out a few weeks or so?
3. You said Max octane but that not MBT timing so I am a little confused? I see my timing in the MBT for the Hondata site knock tables.

 

1.) Technical Specs & Information from CompCams

While these are good general rules for a N/A motor, some of it applies to Forced Induction as well.


Every single configuration will see different results, so the best thing you could do is grab some adjustable cam gears and see what your setup likes most. While these are general rules, it doesn't mean you shouldn't experiment, cam tuning can produce counterintuitive results. So what works for me won't necessarily work for you.

This is why there is often direct conflict in information between manufacturers.

Kelford believes a lower duration exhaust cam and a higher duration intake produce the best combination of low end grunt and power up top. Exemplified by their 280* Intake/276* Exhaust combination for turbo street cars..

HK$ suggests the exact opposite for the same reasons. They popularized the 264* Intake and 272* Exhaust combo for turbo street cars.

I'll let you decide who you want to believe because outside of the basics, there is much debate there, and I personally have seen success and failure with both schools of thought. It varies widely application to application.

Before you mess with cam timing blueprint everything and degree in your cams with a solid lifter, the last thing you want is to eat 8 valves and potentially all 4 pistons because you went overboard one way or the other. Especially when using greater than factory lift.

2.) fueltrimupdatepoints [ECMTuning - wiki] To summarize, it depends on how you drive so it could be minutes at WOT or months putting around the city at idle.


3.) MaxOct is a wide variety of cells used when the ECU thinks it can get away with it. When your arbitrary Octane value is at Max (on a scale of 0-255, 255 would be Max) you use the most aggressive values. If there are conditions that bring you down to say Octane value of 200, you will be using blends of cells from intermediate tables or blended versions of the MinOct and MaxOct tables that the computer has decided are appropriate. With a value like 200 out of 255 you will still be predominately using one of the more aggresive intermediate Octane tables, though not necessarily the MBT or "255" value tables.

Think of the many shades of grey between pure black and pure white, you would be somewhere in the neighborhood of dark grey at 200/255. Sorry if that is still a bit vague.

 

It occurred to me we have different cam profiles to deal with. We have VTEC engines so you have to account for both the high speed and low speed portions.

So, they don't have nearly as much information as the other link but it is atleast application specific. I am still looking for more info on degreeing VTEC specific cams
Tuning - Cam Timing.

 

On the DTC, it was a map sensor over voltage. The dealer couldn't figure it out. It just went away on its own.

On the ads, you're perfectly correct stating that you shouldn't believe them. I just find it hilarious that quick trip, founder of the Temple of Top Tier, came clean. Sometimes there is some truth in advertising, the trick is knowing when.

Here it is again (sorry if I'm rubbing your nose in it too much):


And now I'm just taunting you, so I'll stop.

 

: rotfl:

I could see why you are so fond of that little blurb. Like you they don't actually support their position and make sweeping universal statements. Post it a few more times please. It perfectly illustrates how silly, petty and juvenile your behaviour is.

Unintentional self satire is my favorite kind of schadenfreude.

I'll even post it again for you:

Like the crazy homeless guys downtown or 9/11 conspiracy theorists, you refuse to accept the evidence and support given to you because you do not have the underlying concepts understood well enough to comprehend what you are being told.

There is a reason I have been flooded with PMs calling you a bitter ignorant a$$ and asking me for advice and thoughts. The same reason you have not received similar inquiries. I am trying to help you understand, you refuse to learn. Maybe you are considered "informed" in your local circle compared to the knuckledragging mouth breathers around you, but in the big scheme of things you have thoroughly demonstrated you don't have sh!t for practical or theoretical knowledge.

People reading this know who is full of BS and who actually knows what they are talking about. Probably explains how I have 1/10th the posts in my two weeks here and garnered twice the rep.

You will get no more attention from me, you sad little man. BTW It's hard to taunt someone whos laughing at you.

 

Subjective testimonies that their cars perform any better on premium fuel with or without scan guages are not conclusive. We have similar testimonies stating "can't tell a difference."

Show me some dyno runs that show premium fuel gets better performance on a Fit. Show me any dyno runs for any car designed for regular fuel that illustrate better performance on premium fuel. Oh, that's right; you can't.

Meantime I'll let Cecil taunt you:
link

 

I am tired of people saying premium burns slower. Regular burns slower, Premium has more C2-C5 in the front with the consideration of carbon in the c7-c10. Regular has a higher concentration of carbon in the C9-C15 than premium which takes more time to burn complete. http://www.energylab.com/pdf-docs/fi...ingerprint.pdf
Premium end gases are more resistant to knock. Knock happens when the fuel burns slow, it gives the end gases more time to knock(detention) and the extra carbon causes pre-ignition.

MBT Maximum Brake Torque is less total timing. Knock control tables

You dont know the capabilities of the ecu. There is more than enough info to prove this and people spending there time to show you. Dont you want a flash Pro? You dont believe what they say so why not say Hondata is wrong because thats what your doing.

 

uh oh... honda is in on it...

 

Required fuel when they are speaking of what is the bare minimum is not the same as a positive recommendation.... I find it strange that you would expect someone that is perfectly happy with the fact their car performs better with fuel that is more costly than the minimum recommended by the manufacturer, to spend money to substantiate what they already know..... It is you that has admitted to being biased in your opinion of premium fuel and I think it is you that should do a double blind test of two Fits where one independent person knows which car has which fuel in an equal number of runs for both cars.... I am able to witness the influence that higher octane has on the ECU readouts from my scangauge under different percentages of throttle openings on hills, at different speeds in different gears in both my Fit and my wife's Subaru Forester.... I said in my earliest post on this thread that some people can and some can't tell a difference and that doesn't bother me one way or the other.... I am sorry that it has become such an overwhelming concern of yours and hope that you can eventually deal with it in time.... Don't trouble yourself to set up an unbiased test on behalf of anyone but yourself because it really isn't a big deal to anyone but you.... As William Greene of MIT said, people that put premium fuel in their cars are eccentric, and eccentric people don't pay a lot of attention to the insanity and restricted closed mindedness of the status quo.

 

 

This whole time we have been arguing with a guy who admittedly doesn't know what knock retard feels like. There is dynamic retard in addition to just the max timing you can run, but again, I guess these things are too complicated for the poor guy..

 

again let me preface this by stating that i am not an engineer, but the epa and all auto makers have to post milage for cars using regular gas, as a standard of measure. they are not allowed to use premium because some cars are rated to only use 87 or 89, in which case using premium for prolonged intervals of time could damage the engine. but all cars should be able to run on 87 or regular because that is available everywhere; your car will not run at peak efficiency but it will run. some people don't pay attention to their cars performance so they don't notice any difference from using regular or premium. anybody can pull articles from the net, consider the source that post the information.

 

Well that has stopped no one else from throwing their opinion out in here.

After all that's how I knew this would be an entertaining read...


"the epa and all auto makers have to post milage for cars using regular gas, as a standard of measure. they are not allowed to use premium because some cars are rated to only use 87 or 89"

I am genuinely curious if this statement is true. I am going to look it up, but in the mean time do you have a link? Additionally there are a few things that do not make sense or seem to have any sort of correlation with reality..

For starters:
" in which case using premium for prolonged intervals of time could damage the engine."

Care to elaborate please?

"all cars should be able to run on 87 or regular because that is available everywhere; your car will not run at peak efficiency but it will run."

All cars? Really? There are no exceptions to that? Define everywhere...

You can also "run" at 8.x:1 or 20.x:1AFRs. However that doesn't make it any less of a terrible idea.

 

sorry i stand corrected; not the epa sae. in 2005 sae revised there guidelines for horsepower ratings. toyota and other co. were overstating hp # because they were not stating grade of gas.

link:Horsepower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


again sorry don't know how to copy and paste image.

sucked for me because my 2005 scion tc went from 161 hp to 150 something.
the original story came from the detroit news
Detnews.com | This article is no longer available online | detnews.com | The Detroit News

and this will go again as a testimonial, but every mechanic at yellow cab has told every my father (driver) that the engines that state 87 only (mostly older crown vics) will suffer from miss fire because higher octane fuel resistance to ignite at a lower temp. these engines had lower ignition temps. and my friend's dodge truck failed for the same reason dealer diagnosed. they asked him the grade of gas he used. he always put 91 when 87 was required. they found his tank had 91 in it at the time of service. they tried to pin it on him, but dodge ended up covering it

 

Yep that is correct! As another member pointed out on pg. 10:

 

With the older crown vic's yes. Certainly with the Fit 87 is perfectly acceptable. Today's engines that are tuned to a premium fuel will run perfectly well, with no damage to the engine, for extended periods on regular fuel. It's in the technology.

Questions of performance gains/losses are in a different category.