Painting a rather dark picture, aren't you?

Any empirical data coming from an i-Vtec on these claims. I don't hear of FIT oil filters chocking.

I'm not going to 'argue' oil technology, you have a knowledge that is informed - but I do trust what Honda, and many others, has developed and call the Maintenance Minder.

Take issue with that system, prove a point or two and possibly you'll be a bit more convincing.

Doom and Gloom not good.

 

mahout,

I will grant you the terminology hydrocarbon vs organic argument, however, use of the term could be mistaken by many that "synthetic" is not made from petroleum refinery streams. PAO, AN and Group III most certainly are. In the distant past Castrol R was made from castor bean oil, and in the near future paraffinc Group III+ base oil will be synthesized from natural gas (GTL).

GF-5 Specification

I have plenty of UOA's that show no measurable viscosity breakdown or any other significant loss of properties or contamination in 6-9,000 miles. Blackstone recommended leaving it in much longer.

gr19 / 65FMShop0680.jpg

/ 1968 Buick Owners Manual-Page 42.jpg

Only hydroprocessed paraffinics (Group II and III) are used today in formulating motor oil. Napthenics are now a rare commodity used in some gear oils and industrial uses only.

VW never fitted oil filters to the aircooled engines. The original Chevy V-8 had a blockoff plate if the optional full-flow oil filter was not installed. Here is an illustration of a bypass oil filter, standard on expensive cars like Buick and often optional on others.

1952 Buick Brochure / 1952 Buick Pres.jpg


How long ago was that jelled-up oil found, do you have any idea what type/grade it was and how long it was really in there? 20 or more years ago 5W-30 and 10W-40, made with napthenics could produce "black death" sludge. I also suspect there were, and are today, a few that never change the oil, but just add as necessary.

The title of this thread contains the word "debate". Please take my input as such, and never personal.

 

I have seen with my own two eyes that Honda filters collapse as well as Fram and STP , of coarse with time. Not really gloom and doom,,,,,I personally don't trust cardboard ended filters, if you don't believe me about the honda filters being built that way, ask to see the cut-up view at the dealer service desk.

 

Geesh, this again? I started out with PYB but got so bored with this car that I figured I'd at least give it good oil. Running M1 0W20 with a Supertech filter. Oil is a non-issue with this car. Ask me about the stock tires, though.

BTW, I cut open practically all my filters. Be glad to open up the next supertech and take pics at 12-14k or whenever MM goes off again.

 

If you have never cut open an "e-core" filter before, you will find it interesting. Newer Supertech, AC Delco, STP and others made by Champion Labs use a plastic frame to hold the media. I'm still a fan of the Purolator style of construction, but the Denso filter that came originally on my Tundra was the strangest Ive ever seen, a solid molded piece instead of folded paper. Unfortunately, Toyota Motor Sales does not import those, but sells a repainted Purolator instead. I wonder if the original filters that came with our engines from Japan are also different than the Honeywell (Fram) sourced ones that American Honda sells to its dealers?

 

Don't want to sound like a smart a$$ but is a Supertech filter one of the filters that I mentioned ? Look here http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/index.html , Supertech filters are actually quite good.


Oil Filters come basically in three qualities. Very good, with excellent filtration; normal; and really incredibly bad. This last category, really incredibly bad, should obviously be avoided. Accordingly, never use a Fram, Pennzoil, Penske, Castrol, or Quaker State oil filter in any motor you like. All of these filters are made by Fram. The filter element itself is a normal paper element, and probably no better or worse than anyone else's paper element. However, the end caps on the filter element are made of cardboard in these filters. There are numerous stories of these cardboard end caps getting saturated with oil and coming apart, putting little cardboard fragments directly into the oil flow into your engine bearings. As they say in GhostBusters, this "would be bad." Personally, I don't consider cardboard a suitable material for my engine internals.

 

We have installed tousands of oil filters, more often than not, FRAM without a single one come back failed, either pressure drop or non-filtrtation. we did have one cut with the wong thread. Many of these were in race applications HP-15's for example.
The true measure of any filter is the particle size or contaminant found in the effluent and the pressure drop across the filter.
We have run the 3 ball friction test hundreds of times and while a good test, do not come close to corrolating with dyno testing, even if its only a single cylinder test bed.
And its not a problem to extend lubricant hours to failure by simply reducing the severity of test conditions. Personally, I run my engines in the coldest of weather, the shortest trips, and the hardest effort conditions enough that deterioration in viscosity is a good measure of between changes for oil. The smaller the engine displacement the morelikely thats the case, especially if it has to carry a lot of weight.
cheers.
PS most reputeable filter manufacturers make good filters not very prone to failure at working pressures less than 100 psi. Vehicle engines have positive displacement oil pumps which means they will build pressurre til something gives, more than likely some part of the filter, particularly the high pressure bypass.Thats the way it should be. cheers.

 

I'm just wondering if we're talking about the Honda FIT or something else here. We are at least in average automotive applications, right? Or is this a high performance motor cycle discussion?

Help me or does it really not matter????

 

This a discussion of the importance of good lubrication and good filtration of contaminants in any internal combustion engine, Fit 1500 or Cobra jet 427 Or a VFR.
All those crevice points, mine included, are merely to confirm thata good lube, filter, and reasonable times bertween oil/filter changes do matter a very great deal.

 

yes, Mobil 1 full synthetic is awesome, after 4700 mile road trip oil life is still at 30%
plus only $21 for 5qt jug at walmart
use a good filter too, i use the mobil 1 oil filter M1-M110
or the purolator pure good too.
i use to like amsoil but the price is just too high and availability was an issue.

 

I don't think I said it was. Just pointing out what I use. I also know that that article is old, I've read it several times, and only marginally respected. You'd be better off reading the filter section of BITOG.

 

that article is 10 yrs ago, with the china manufacturing, more filters being produced in china, even the Honda OEm filter is fram.
i have seen the inside of a new oem filter and the mobil 1, i would stay with the mobil 1 especially if you are using 100% full synthetic oil.

 

Honda Genuine 5W-20 motor oil is more than sufficient for this car. That and a good quality oil filter along with changes according to the maintenance minder and the car will run for ever.

Oil manufactures spend millions of dollars every year trying to convince you why you should buy their oil, when the fact of the matter is, a good quality oil such as the Honda Genuine stuff, a good quality filter (I think this thread has sufficiently illustrated why Fram should be avoided at all costs), and oil changes on a regular maintenance schedule, and the car will run forever. I have known too many people who had hundreds of thousands of miles on their car with regular old oil.

These oil discussions will rage on forever, I've even been a part of some of them. They are interesting but pointless ultimately, as people will do what they want to do regardless. It's just like the premium vs regular gas debates. If someone wants to put premium in a car that requires regular gas they're going to do it no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary.

Have fun continuing this debate, I'm out!

 

Good reading, I still dont know if regular dino goes to 10000 miles if mm says so. I think it will because of cleaner gasolines. Dealers charge a lot for oil and if you want your warranty you should have them change it so its on record. Every one can buy oil at the store but that dont prove its in the car.
As far as the bulk oil they use as dino, could be 5w30, also theres air in the line and you dont know if they stir the oil. If fram oil filter are bad then why does Honda use them to make their filters?

 

Honda OEM filters are now made by fram, which are not good, im sure they do meet the bare minimun specs
For cheaper then a Honda dealer oil change, I Use mobil 1 5w 20 full synthetic and a Mobil 1 filter.
which is far better then the Honda OEM filter and oil.
Older honda filters where much higher quality but lots of companies moved manufacturing to china the last few yrs.
Honda uses a filter to meet their basic requirements, and the fram filter is dirt cheap.
everyone has their own opinion and experience but im happy with mobil 1 full synthetic oil and the mobil 1 oil filter and the price point is unbeatable, excellent for the quality and price.

 

Here is a link to the results from my oil use and subsequent analysis...

Oil Analysis

 

Very interesting, thanks Roger. Samples are 11 months apart. Looks like you'll be getting 18months per oil change, that's what I project mine will be. Right now MM is at 60%@5600Miles. Personally I think this is crazy, but I am a believer and will do what MM says.

What I see is that you should have followed the prevailing thought and allowed dino 10Kmiles to 'break-in' the engine. Seat the rings. That would mean two oil changes before the switch.

Not sure what an injector cleaner is going to do to cure the 'fuel %'. Are you thinking that you have an injector leaking fuel into a cylinder?

Possible, but I would think this would cause other symptoms as well. You would be running rich - MPG would show a hit. We're talking an engine with 95% of it's life yet to go.

Injectors should be up to snuff, wouldn't you think? What is an acceptable number here?

Interesting is the silicone. Not sure what 'seal break-in' means?? Air intake will put it in the cylinder, but into the crank?

Molybdenum numbers dropped right off. Element added to engine during manufacture, oil change flushes it out.

Additive metals up a bit. This could be the switch in oil?

I will be sampling the oil coming out of my engine, at least the first few, plan on syn after two changes of dino, but that could be 20K, phew. Talk about economy!

 

Here's a comparison, two oil changes by fufit, both in the report.

https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-...es-09-fit.html

First oil went 10K - second went 8.5K
Fuel is <.5%
Moly and Silicon dropped.

 

I have thought I might have a leaking injector. My current thoughts now are that is blow by on the rings.

Silicon, not Silicone, is a wear product. It comes from poor filtration from the air filter, leakage in the air intake, and seal break in. Seals wear slightly and form a contact pattern. Another Fit poster saw the same results on his first oil change from Blackstone Labs, a different analysis company than the one I used.

Your last post, that's exactly what i was talking about. read the comments on his first and second oil change. They describe what we are seeing with silicon.

 

just wanted to say again

after i had my oil change to synthetic the fit is running so much smoother and quieter

also, it starts much faster

once you go synthetic, you never go back