This is kind of close to the stigma that I just don't get. Who has determined that 5500 miles is "plenty of miles"? I'm definitely not qualified and i'm guessing that 99% of the people on this board are not qualified either. (no offense to anyone). Our knowledge on oil changes as I stated before comes from decades of doing the same thing (change at 3k) instead of listening to companies that actually know what they are talking about... Places like blackstone labs. There have been a handful of people who have sent off analysis samples to blackstone and every one has come back stating the car could have gone easily over 10k or 15k miles. With Synthetic, longer should even be possible.

There seems to be (on many people's parts - not all) a lack of faith in Honda and there ability to accurately determine how long a current oil [that meets their requirements] would be able to run in one of their engines. Most people buy Hondas because of their reliable engines They are also the number one manufacturer of engines so I would think more people would trust Honda's judgment on how the engine should be treated.

~SB

 

I bought a new Goldwing in 2002 and some Honda oil for it... The dealer told me to change it at 8000 miles if I could stand to not to change it first ... It got changed, I just couldn't let it go that long... My oil change record for the FIT is the saved filters in a box in the barn At 30,000 miles I put number 6 in the box and have 986 miles on the new oil and filter.....Synthetic oils appear to thicken over time and loose viscosity over time as mileage is accumulated and I change mine in the spring and late fall as seasons change regardless of miles or the minder.... I bought the Fit July 14 2006.

 

Ive been doing some research need to check this out. ApNano Materials This is a new oil additive.
Car Bibles : The Engine Oil Bible This is a good write up on oil I like it for two reason 1. that not all amsoil oil meet the API rating. 2. It explains a1-5 on the bottles.

 

I have to add this post New Lubes Last Longer This will explain how long you can leave oil in. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...4/oil-goes-bad

 

No wonder I am having trouble remembering things, I am pushing everything out of my memory banks to have room for all of the informative stuff you keep linking me with... Thanks again.

 

I found more but I will wait. I just though this would answer the questions that are on this blog. And I found a signature too.

 

That's a terrific article to explain hydroprocessing and hydrocarbon types in motor oil, but it is a few years old. Motor oil standards will be two generations ahead of that this fall (GF-5). No Group I at all is used in automotive and truck motor oils. Groups II+ and III+ are also not mentioned, because they didnt exist back then. Chevron's ISOSYN base oil is group II+ and Shell's XHVI is group III+. Shell makes Rotella T6, Pennzoil Ultra and Helix Ultra with that base oil, not from hydroprocessed distillates, but from slack waxes and Gas-to-Liquids.

Today's "dino" is equivalent in performance to yesterday's synthetic and today's synthetic lasts longer than most any of you would dare leave it in. Additive depletion can be monitored with a TBN test.

 

Thanks for the info. I just had to find conformation on what I thought I knew.
Most oils are group 2+, that why Honda says 7500 to 10000 mile on maintenance minder. Did you see the new additive, I think thats old too. Ive used m1 no problems but on my new car I am planning to use dino. Now I know I will be ok. plus gf5 coming out in October added piece of mind.

 

I found another link Motor Oils - Fuel Economy vs. Wear this explain engine build up because of zinc.

 

I have a question If moly is a ep additive and can not handle detergents. Why does Honda put it on the pistons skirts? and leave first oil in till 7500-10000 miles? I know that the new moly is more stable but I just read that it cant handle detergents. Something is not making sense.

 

Bullet, they are impregnated with moly as an alloy, not as a lube, check this out, http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/Wiseco-Honda-Fit-Pistons.pdf.

 

Armorglide is a trademark for urethanes modified with ultra high molecular weight polyethylene. In their description I see no mention of molybdenum. It is a coating intended to reduce the friction of piston sides rubbing against cylinder walls. There are many other coatings available; the best seems to be ceramic but naturally are vastly more costly. NASCAR and F! are probably the only main users of ceramicones. Perhaps thepolyurethans also use powdered ceramics, even Mo or MoS but I haven't found such references. Such stuff are held in much more secrecy than making a nuclear weapon.
Mo or MoS is so easily 'rubbed' off that such a coating woulfd not last long enough to be useful.
Back in the old days we did use some cooked abrasive resistant coatings so the idea has always been around. And one race was all you got, if then.

 

I never said they where coated in moly, I was told by a tech that the pistons in our Fits were coated in so UHMW stuff also. Moly is an ingredient in the oil that Honda, and Toyota uses, and maybe put on the connecting rods in assembly. I was trying to make the point of the coating on the pistons, just came out wrong. Sorry. I PM 'ed someone on this subject before I think it was Coyote or Bullet.

 

Actually the old 3000 mile limit on changing hydrocarbon, as opposed to synthetics, was based on a lot of testing, by all manufacturers vehicles and oils.
The limit was based on the reduction of viscosity of the lubricant which at that time was related to the increase in friction between 'rubbing' metal parts.
About 3000 miles at somewhat severe conditions was all an engine of its materials of construction would tolerate without severe wear and visible oil burring exhaust. Lots of laborary R&D was expended. Improvements then came from the changing the mixes of various hydrocarbons along with the additions of friction, viscosity, and anti-oxidants to the formulations. Formulations were closely held secrets. Remember "Petrox"? Lubricants, like gasoline, are mixtures of as many as dozens of components.
Synthetics brought a whole new game to town. Where viscosity was often related to the ability of lubricants to 'thin out' without 'tearing', the synthetics just didn't want to tear, as happens with a sheet that you pull at the four corners till it 'tears'. That tearing leads to unprotected metal to metal contact and if unchecked leads to quick engine failure.
Synthetics allowed much less viscosity, or 'thickness' of lubricants, so they could flow into much tuighter tolerances and offered better separation of the two rubbing surfaces and that, as well as less pumping losses, led to less friction losses and more power for longer periods of time. it is believed that F1 engines have some really exotic lubricants, even potentially deadly, for engines than can turn better than 20,000 rpm for hours at a time.
The limit of 7500 miles between oil changes is set more by marketing than engineering; independent testing has pretty well demonstrated 5000 to 600 miles is pretty safe with synthetics based on viscosity and shear-testing (that tearing thing) but usual hydrocarbon oils especially napthenic more than paraffin based, still show significant decrease after 3000 miles. Its not that either won't go farther its just less probable to go without wear than 3000 and 6000 miles. Its all about risk-taking.

And you thought alchemy was a forgotten 'science' back in the middle ages...
Who knows what lurks in the labs of chemists ...

 

Mobile 1 is my favorite

 

Motul is my brand of choice.

 

All base oils are hydrocarbons, even exotic esters, which are made from alcohols (hydrocarbons) reacted with acids. PAO ("traditional" Group IV synthetic) is an Olefin, a basic hydrocarbon. Hydroprocessed paraffinic base oils have a high natural VI, needing less VII additive, so it no longer shears out of grade. Metal-to-metal contact is still handled primarily by additives, less ZDDP now, and more moly, due to cat converter concerns. Additive chemistry is no longer a proprietary "secret" as they are freely sold as commodities now, like the base oils themselves. Chevron will sell you all the ingredients necessary to formulate your own API-spec oil.

No credit is being given to modern engine design. The days of raw fuel washing down the cylinders from an over-choked cold engine are long gone. Lean burning EFI and high energy computer igintion systems, along with much reduced sulfur in fuels all greatly reduce oil contamination. Better temperature controls to warm up engines faster also helps a lot.

The only 3000 mile factory-recommened interval I can find was aircooled VWs that had no oil filter and a tiny 2.5 qt sump. By the 1960's Ford's recommendation was 6000 and GM's was 4000. A decade prior, oil filters were optional, and usually bypass type. Today, 7500 is actually a good average number for "dino", backed by oil analysis, absent an intelligent oil monitoring system.

 

Good info, How does ethanol in gas dilute oil? or break it down?

 

I think you mean all of these lubricants are organics. hydrocarbons are compounds consisting of mainly straight orbranched chain of hydrogen and carbon, such as octane, H8O18. Organics can be a lot of components of which carbon is the basic one. Polyesters, polyols, polyethers and polyolefins are not only straight or branched HC's but contain oxygen and other components as well as often being cyclic compounds. All of these have properties much appreciated (and some undesired) for vehicle lubrication so their choices and utilization is carefully considered.
I also take issue with your proposition that Chevron will sell you all the ingredients to make your own API spec oil. While they may offer enough to meet viscosity the additives required for less friction and anti-wear are still guarded.
I have a number of fifties and sixties owner manuals and they all specify 3000 miles between changes and filter. My participation in lab tests confirmed; most of my tests involved the upper limits of engine running conditions, such as high rpm at low tempertures or very high temperatures. Even now have you compared the manufacturer's recommendation for service?
7500 milesis still a long way out. Checking VI (viscosity index) for 'used' oil
finds enough detrioration in our tests to make those 7500 miles between changes suspect for all but the lower 3 sigma conditions of driving.
And the days of oil coated cylinder walls are not gone; that is required for decent levels of friction. For engines today versus engines of 20 years ago the cylinder wall clearances aren't much different, if at all.
Paraffin based oils are much more resistant to that'tear' effect so that hard use in high temperatures and velocities are less likely to result in metal-to-metal failures.
And oil filters were NEVER optional in vehicles; bypass filters simply mean that when your filter plugged up the oil bypassed the filter to save the engine, assuming you weren't so daft as to keep running it.
(We've had owners show up with engines trying to circulate almost jelly-like consistency oil with engine failures. Needless to say all swore on a stack of bibles that they changed oil every 3000 miles.)

 

Mahout, you should also mention a 4 ball wear test, your not going to win here, I've tried talking sense to some, they want to use the maintenance minder, let them... Just think how much junk will accumulate in that little filter too after 7500 mile or more. total plug, hope the bypass works in a cardboard ended filter.