Just for shits and giggles imagine an electric driven car. They almost always have no transmission at all in current production models. They have less drivetrain loss than manual or automatic. Would you Still prefer manual?

 

No and I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. Not only that but you get 100% torque starting at 0 RPM.

Plus they are extremely cheap to operate, even the fast ones. With a gas engine if you wanna go fast (tm) you're spending big bucks on fuel.

Plus maintenance is reduced drastically. At least the EV forums of the future won't have a new thread every day about the oil change interval! (jokes)

The only downside right now is battery energy density, which limits driving range.

 

I figured that the obsessive needs of some people to want to multi task and drive with one hand was the reason..... The ones that scare me are the guys and gals doing the phone sex thing while watching porn, masturbating and driving at the same time..

 

This is the first time I've thought about it but imagine a police chase against an electric car. It wouldn't last very long. Those batteries empty quick at full power.

 

I think the issue though is that we are getting into the greater issue of: why do we drive? Both automatic and manual have pros and cons that balance quite well. If we are lookin at practicality we would go with the automatic 95% of the time. The only practical features of a manual are: lower intial cost (although when your clutch fails, this savings will be lost) and the POTENTIAL for higher MPGs (Except this would be inconsistent with reason moat people buy a manual though, because it would require you to drive in a 'non-sporty' manner)

If we are looking strictly for perfomance or a 'fun to drive' factor (not that auto w/ paddles isn't Fun, just not as much) you'd go with the manual.

However, the fit itself is both fun to drive AND practical with either transmission. The decision Will only tip the scales in either direction a little more. Personally the convience of an automatic was more important to me and i've committed to keeping the fit for a long time as a dd. Once the fit is paid off it will be time to select a sports car that I won't have to put alot of miles n thanks to the fit.

 

From my perspective a one speed electric car IS a manual.

A manual trans with a 1:1 top gear will have similar drivetrain losses that an electric would.

 

BALONEY!
The only practical advantage autos have over manuals is for people that often drive in heavy stop and go traffic. Every other practical advantage is to the manuals.
(I don't consider idiotproof-ness a legitimate advantage)

Lower initial cost, lighter weight, better fuel economy, better power delivery, lower maintenance, better reliability, better longevity.

 

Manual transmissions aren't as costly to repair as automatics and clutches last for a long time unless 0 to 60 ETs are important numbers to brag about to someone.... My closest neighbor has 290,000 miles on a 95 Dodge truck and the clutch is the original and doesn't slip..... Most of the people that are going to have drive train problems are those with heavy oversized wheels and tires and a small amount of time behind the wheel.... That will prove true for manual or automatic transmissions..... I can drop a manual transmission and install a clutch by myself but an automatic requires parts cleaning vats and tools that I don't have so all of our cars have manual shift.

 

Those are very true. But they are really only 5 - 10 % differences in most cattegories and some of them today are about equal.

I see you are very passionate about rowing the gearbox in your dd. However, your inability to see why the automatic is a more practical option for American drivers will not make it less so. It's not that those aren't practical things you've listed. It's just that the overall convenience of not depressing a clutch every stop. Every downshift. Every upshift. Is Overwhelmingly greater for most drivers today. You never miss a gear with an Automatic. You never stall with an automatic. The point is that to most drivers the small differences you mention are trivial. I 100% understand your view but most will not care when buying a car in this class. There is a reason the SI only comes in manual.

 

I would argue we do not have enough data to make a call on this. We have no idea what the reliability of these particular transmissions will be when mated with the l15a. I'm sure both will preform great but the fact of the matter is that neither of us is the average consumer. We can change a clutch for $200 or less. The average consumer will pay at least 3 times that.


It's great to view yourself as a purist or an enThusiast but it will not change the way consumers weigh particular advantages and disadvantages.

I understand and respect how some feel about the advantages of a manual transmission but the, aparently daring, point I am am trying to suggest is that only a very limited number of people are going to find the advantages of a manual to outweigh an automatic in terms of practicality.



Edit: can't believe I forgot this but, there is also a good chance you will lose a good bit of that savings on the manual if you ever sell you car.

 

Why are there no manuals out there? There are TONS of them out there- automatics with paddles!



I know it's not really the same thing, but I feel like I have the best of both worlds. And I suspect this is what Honda is feeling too. I'm sure the numbers are reflecting an overwhelming slant towards automatic sales, so what do you think is gonna happen? And to boot, automatics have the sport mode. Both modes integrate seemlessly. I'd like to see manuals still widely available for people who prefer them, no doubt. Why should they get screwed. But personally, automatic with sport mode is fine and dandy enough for me.

Dan

 

I think lower initial cost hasn't been looked at strong enough. $850 of initial cost (not including interest) is a big difference when you are talking about a $16K car. Most people also don't keep their cars until they are dead as many in this class will be newer buyers looking to upgrade in 5 or 6 years. There is no repair cost on a clutch if you trade up before the clutch goes. I replaced my prelude clutch at 165K miles and never replaced anything on my Integras. Manuals are also easier to control in winter driving as feathering the clutch just a little more here and there will get you going, or back on track during some heavier snowfall.

~SB

 

Yes, but you will get less money when you sell the car because it is a manual. Sort of negates a majority of the savings.

Lol, looks like this was post# 200 for both of us. Grats!

 

Aside from the obvious hardware differences in and under the car, this can be done equally effective in sport mode. Is the only major difference between a manual and sport mode the parts, or lack thereof? I have driven a stick before, but I certainly cannot claim to be a stick driver. But suffice to say, ime sport mode is identicle to manual.

Or, am a WAY off base? It wouldn't be the first time.



Dan

 

5-10% is a big difference. You fail to see that it isn't about rowing the gearbox (for me at least). It is about the practical advantages. The real ones, not the ones that fall into the idiot proof category. I never miss a gear or stall. On the occasion that I do have to drive in heavy traffic I can almost do it on autopilot and don't have to think much about the motions.
You have to put some time and effort into leaning how to drive a manual. It takes 10 seconds to learn how to drive an auto. Therein lies the real reason autos are more popular.

 

I like to drive more aggressively than a lot of people less than half my age.... My wife drives like the little old lady she is.... I drive a super charged Fit she drives a Subaru Forester and both have manual transmissions.... Both of us like the fact that with manual a transmission you have more control of your car than with automatic and we also know that when an automatic goes bad and needs repair an expensive overhaul is required and the cost is such for a front wheel drive car that is out of warranty and more than 5 or 6 years old isn't worth spending the money to fix.... I guess for a person that can justify trading in a car every years and living with a car note an automatic transmission is great but both of us really enjoy driving and with an automatic transmission driving just isn't the same.

 

Someone posted about a 1:1 ratio in An electric car vs a gas based car being essentially the same. This is definitely not the case. The gear ratio may be the same but the amount of torque available at 0mph is completely different. Gas engines have low torque at lower rpms while an EV has instant 100% torque Read up on the transmission issues of the Tesla due to too much torque available instantly.


looked at some 5 yr old Honda civics... looks like the difference in price is only $250-350 between the auto and manual so that's still a $5-600 Savings. Routine maintenance is also usually less on a manual trans than an auto so the difference that is potentially lost is somewhat recouped in maintenance costs.

The thing with a clutch is that you can actually feel the engine grab and control wheelspin not with the throttle, but with the clutch itself. Paddle shifters are a "definitive" shift that you have no incremental control over. You can't slow down by letting the car freewheel a tiny bit or feather the engine braking in an auto. in an auto, you are always in gear and therefore don't have the complete control of a manual. The Paddle shifters are like the XTronic trans in the Altima I had. you could Shift to set gears manually but you were always in gear. It just didn't have the capability of a manual in the snow.

Agreed. And 5% difference here and 5% difference there adds up.

I used to live in NJ (NYC Suburbs) and always drove Manual Trans. Never had any issues we picked up the autos here in VT after needing a 4Dr when we added a little one to the family. I wanted a manual Altima but CVT was really the only option in the area. The Altima was the right choice for what we needed at the right price. Now with different needs, the fit ... "Fits the bill" and I have to say, having a left pedal and a 5sp (wish it was 6) feels natural and much more comfortable.

~SB

 

It's kind of nice knowing that there aren't very many manual transmission FITS out there because the rarity makes them more desireable. There are even some forum members who have driven hundreds of miles or to other states just to purchase a manaul equipped FIT! Now that is passionate!
In fact, I believe the ONE CHANGE FOR THE 2010 FIT is that you can no longer order a FIT Sport both VSA and Navigation with the manual transmission. Once again making the Manual even harder to find.
By the way, I am a hypermiler and purchased the M/T Sport for getting more MPGs.

 

If the CR-Z uses the L15 mated to an electric pancake motor we may just be able to swap in its 6-speed gearbox.

I've read nothing about it using an L15. I am only speculating because it's supposed to have a 1.5 liter engine AND because Formula F is going to be using the L15.

 

The biggest things that turns people off about driving a car with a small displacement engine that is lacking in power and torque is the parasitic loss of power of the automatic and heat that is dissipated under the hood that overheats the intake air and results in an even larger power loss at the wheels..... The torque converter allows most automatics to take off in 2nd gear on slippery surfaces and is far better in ice, snow, loose dry sand, and mud.... I really like the constant velocity transmissions that ramp up speed while the engine stays at the point of highest torque producing RPM..... I have a couple of 250cc scooters with CVT and the accelerate surprisingly well and at light throttle cruise at low RPM.... Lots of cars including the Fit with the 1300cc and 1400cc engines are using this in other parts of the world and Subaru is using it here and it has the best fuel mileage figures of any of there other cars that use the other transmissions offered and performs best off road and in ice and snow also.