Dealer threat over Cash for Clunkers paperwork!!!
#21
08-03-2009, 08:39 PM
5X5, you got screwed by a shady dealer, no doubt about. Obviously, their lack of nearby competion is not helping potential customers.
My timeline was -
Sunday 7/26 test drove a Fit and an Accent SE, got best price from both dealers (the Honda dealers best price was sticker
)
Tuesday 7/28 went to another Honda dealer, didn't test drive, just negotiated, got the price down, and left dealership after putting $200 deposit on my SSM that was on the lot. Scheduled delivery for Monday 7/27
Saturday 7/25 downloaded and read the 136 page C.A.R.S. final rules, printed all forms that I would need, gathered title, 2 years worth of registrations, and 18 months of proof of insurance.
Monday 7/27 drove in in my 92 F150, completed deal, drove off with my Fit.
Like I said, sounds like you got screwed by a dealer who has no other local Toyota competion.
And one other thing - Paragraphs are your FRIEND!
The C4C is a good program that did what it was supposed to do, it just got overwhelmed by the response to it.
Lovin my Fit, and the fact that I got $4,500 for a rustbucket F150 that I bought new in '92, and I couldn't have sold on the street for more than $700, inspite of it running great, and averaging 13 MPG.
My timeline was -
Sunday 7/26 test drove a Fit and an Accent SE, got best price from both dealers (the Honda dealers best price was sticker
)Tuesday 7/28 went to another Honda dealer, didn't test drive, just negotiated, got the price down, and left dealership after putting $200 deposit on my SSM that was on the lot. Scheduled delivery for Monday 7/27
Saturday 7/25 downloaded and read the 136 page C.A.R.S. final rules, printed all forms that I would need, gathered title, 2 years worth of registrations, and 18 months of proof of insurance.
Monday 7/27 drove in in my 92 F150, completed deal, drove off with my Fit.
Like I said, sounds like you got screwed by a dealer who has no other local Toyota competion.
And one other thing - Paragraphs are your FRIEND!
The C4C is a good program that did what it was supposed to do, it just got overwhelmed by the response to it.
Lovin my Fit, and the fact that I got $4,500 for a rustbucket F150 that I bought new in '92, and I couldn't have sold on the street for more than $700, inspite of it running great, and averaging 13 MPG.
Last edited by Krizz; 08-03-2009 at 09:15 PM.
#22
08-03-2009, 09:10 PM
My dealer tried to get me to sign a promissary note for $4,500.00 if the CFC money didn't come from the government. I told I would only sign a note for $4,500.00 LESS the trade in value of my car - otherwise I've lost my current vehicle and got nothing from it. They parked me an hour while they came up with a value which was lower than I expected but what could I do at that point. So now if the CFC money doesn't come in I owe $2,975.00.
I can understand the dealer's point of view on this. If they did 20 deals the government didn't fund they are out $90,000.00 - so much for helping the auto industry.
I can understand the dealer's point of view on this. If they did 20 deals the government didn't fund they are out $90,000.00 - so much for helping the auto industry.
#23
08-03-2009, 11:54 PM
Make sure you have signed paperwork (the yellow sheet, if the follow what our Honda dealer has) that has your and their signatures on it showing trade-in value of your clunker for 4500. They're the ones who'll get the short end of the stick, though if they do I'd advise you find a different place for warranty service.
Potentially worth reporting to the BBB; the dealership is trying to change the terms of your contract post-signing, which is called breach-of-contract or worse in court. So don't give in to them. You may end up in court if they try to throw a lein on the car, but you can probably get the court to throw it out and make the dealership pay for your lawyer fees.
I gotta say, we wouldn't have signed a "or actual cash value of the trade-in". The deal would have been "if CFC fails, we get our car back in the condition it was left in and you get the fit back, plus some miles." Else we'd just run our clunker into the ground and hope it holds out for the hybrid fit or one of the electric cars.
Potentially worth reporting to the BBB; the dealership is trying to change the terms of your contract post-signing, which is called breach-of-contract or worse in court. So don't give in to them. You may end up in court if they try to throw a lein on the car, but you can probably get the court to throw it out and make the dealership pay for your lawyer fees.
I gotta say, we wouldn't have signed a "or actual cash value of the trade-in". The deal would have been "if CFC fails, we get our car back in the condition it was left in and you get the fit back, plus some miles." Else we'd just run our clunker into the ground and hope it holds out for the hybrid fit or one of the electric cars.
#24
08-04-2009, 01:00 AM
Wow, ok guys, if anyone wants you to sign a promissory note for money "in case" the CFC money doesn't come in, run. There is absolutely no reason that is necessary.
Second, do not put money down on a car until you have the keys. There are tons of Fits, they can get what you want, if you can't you'll find one w/in a 1 hr. radius and they can get one.
I'm sorry you guys got screwed by the dealers, that really sucks. I'd consider contacting the local Better Business Bureau and trying to talk to someone in person about their behavior. I'd also consider talking to an attorney and getting a letter alleging fraudulent behavior and violation of consumer protection laws (pray your state has them - not sure about feds b/c i work in a different area of law). Finally, if that doesn't do it, find someone you know who knows someone who's a police officer. Get that person's number and threaten to call and finally call them to get your money back if they won't give you anything back. If you ask for it back (hopefully not non-refundable) and they won't give it, they are in illegal possession of your vehicle and can be arrested for theft.
Hope this helps.
Second, do not put money down on a car until you have the keys. There are tons of Fits, they can get what you want, if you can't you'll find one w/in a 1 hr. radius and they can get one.
I'm sorry you guys got screwed by the dealers, that really sucks. I'd consider contacting the local Better Business Bureau and trying to talk to someone in person about their behavior. I'd also consider talking to an attorney and getting a letter alleging fraudulent behavior and violation of consumer protection laws (pray your state has them - not sure about feds b/c i work in a different area of law). Finally, if that doesn't do it, find someone you know who knows someone who's a police officer. Get that person's number and threaten to call and finally call them to get your money back if they won't give you anything back. If you ask for it back (hopefully not non-refundable) and they won't give it, they are in illegal possession of your vehicle and can be arrested for theft.
Hope this helps.
#25
08-04-2009, 01:02 AM
Finally, this is only supposed to help those auto dealerships that do their homework. They should know what paperwork they need and they should tell you what they want from you. If they can't assess based on the paperwork they have in front of them whether your car will qualify, find another dealer or find another salesman/woman. Don't settle with incompetence, especially when purchasing something, especially when it could cost you $4,500.
#26
08-04-2009, 02:58 AM
mr5by5 have you ever heard of a paragraph? There is no way anyone can read through that mess. I don't understand how you had the time to type it up in the first place.
Anyway, to the OP, if a dealership left me a message like that using the language you said, I would not sign anything. Legally there isn't jack they can do which is why they are so frantic. All they needed to do was leave a polite vmail asking if you could please come and sign the paperwork THEY forgot to have you sign in the first place. Serious man, if it were me I would call them up and tell them to shove it. I don't take kindly to threats.
Anyway, to the OP, if a dealership left me a message like that using the language you said, I would not sign anything. Legally there isn't jack they can do which is why they are so frantic. All they needed to do was leave a polite vmail asking if you could please come and sign the paperwork THEY forgot to have you sign in the first place. Serious man, if it were me I would call them up and tell them to shove it. I don't take kindly to threats.
#27
08-04-2009, 04:06 AM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: West Coast, USA
Posts: 1,448
It seems when my wife and I did our Cash for Clunkers trade last Monday the dealership forgot to have us sign one of the many forms they need to be reimbursed from the government.
I get a call at 8:30 this morning from my salesperson telling me this. Ok, no big deal the dealership is close to where I work. I'm off today, and have things to do, but figure I will go in tomorrow on my way to work and sign the papers. So...I get a voicemail on my cell phone two hours later telling me that if I didn't get my ass up to the dealership pronto (implied) my wife and I would need (be forced) to reimburse the dealership it's $4500.
I can't begin to tell you how upset I am at this. I don't think they could have done anything to us legally anyway, I just feel this was bad business for them to throw down on us like that.
I think we will write the owner a letter telling them how we feel.
I get a call at 8:30 this morning from my salesperson telling me this. Ok, no big deal the dealership is close to where I work. I'm off today, and have things to do, but figure I will go in tomorrow on my way to work and sign the papers. So...I get a voicemail on my cell phone two hours later telling me that if I didn't get my ass up to the dealership pronto (implied) my wife and I would need (be forced) to reimburse the dealership it's $4500.
I can't begin to tell you how upset I am at this. I don't think they could have done anything to us legally anyway, I just feel this was bad business for them to throw down on us like that.
I think we will write the owner a letter telling them how we feel.
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/gene...fit-owner.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/gene...kers-news.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/gene...periences.html
First the program was extended through the weekend, and then ONLY through Monday and Tuesday. That's the news from the White House. Then they changed it on Sunday to be through the end of the week (I'm trying to keep up!)
The House voted to add more money to the CARS program, now we have to wait for the Senate to vote on it, for the money to be available.
Here's an article that highlights the very problems being discussed in thread:
Will 'clunkers' rebate be salvaged? - JSOnline
Dealer worries, consumer worries.
When time is of the essence, you don't meander in when you feel like it to do the paperwork. If they can't process the total application, they don't get the rebate. Which means YOU don't get the rebate either.
" In Wisconsin, a number of dealers said they were still making clunkers deals, but the agreements were contingent on the availability of government rebates.
Elsewhere, dealers were telling buyers they'd have to bring their new cars back or pay back the rebate if their applications were rejected by the government.
Some dealers are holding off on sending trade-ins to be scrapped, just in case the deals don't work out and buyers need their old cars back. "
Last edited by TaffetaWhite; 08-04-2009 at 09:18 AM. Reason: Added on the update for the CARS program
#28
08-04-2009, 04:28 AM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: West Coast, USA
Posts: 1,448
I have a dealer "working on" a C4C deal on a Fit but I expect it to fall through. Your story is bad but mine is worse (ha! ha!) here's my experience so far with the government's intrusion into the auto business (BTW: nothing from Toyota on this yet either, I think that Toyota and Honda don't really want to get involved with C4C - just waiting to try to get a more profitable deal from me when the program is over...)
To: Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. 19001 South Western Ave. Dept. WC11 Torrance, CA 9050
Dear Sir or Madam: I am writing to inform you that the incompetence of one of your dealers, Vanderstyne Toyota-Scion in Rochester, NY has cost Toyota Motor Company a sale!
Early in the week of July 20-24, 2009 my wife and I drove a new 2009 Toyota Yaris 2-door at Vanderstyne. We also drove a Honda Fit at a nearby Honda dealer and decided we liked the Toyota better than the Honda. The Yaris we drove had some expensive options that we did not want but the salesman, Jay Vanderstyne, assured us that he could locate a “dealer-trade” with pretty much the equipment we wanted and would be able to close a deal with us on July 24th under the US Government “Car Allowance Rebate System” (CARS Program) that was to go into effect on that date.
On the 24th Mr. Vanderstyne contacted me via E-mail to let me know that he had located a vehicle that would meet our specifications. (The E-mail included an invoice for the vehicle providing detailed information about the equipment, pricing, and even the color and VIN for the vehicle.) I replied to his E-mail immediately making him an offer on the car and he accepted my offer and confirmed that they were prepared to begin processing the deal under the CARS Program immediately.
I gathered all the paperwork I thought would be required for the government (Mr. Vanderstyne was not specific at all about what was needed other than a check in the amount of $500 as a deposit!) and went right in to the dealership to complete a Purchase Agreement. At the time my Purchase Agreement was completed I provided Mr. Vanderstyne with my New York State DMV Registration for the (CARS Program eligible) car I was trading, my NYS Driver’s License, and my current NYS Insurance ID card to photocopy for documentation under the CARS Program. I also handed him my original copy of my NYS Certificate of Title showing no liens or encumbrances on the vehicle – he also photocopied that and returned all the original documents to me. Mr. Vanderstyne then informed me that I should be able to take delivery of my new Toyota on Monday or Tuesday (July 27th or 28th, 2009) and that he would be in touch if he needed any further information.
On Monday July 27th, 2009 I went to my Bank and drew a Cashier’s Check in the full amount of the outstanding balance for the transaction shown on the Purchase Agreement so as to be prepared to take delivery of the car the following day.
On Tuesday, July 27th, 2009 Mr. Vanderstyne called to indicate that they were “having some problems” with the CARS Program process and that they would need me to FAX or E-mail them additional proof that my vehicle had been insured for the past twelve months. (My policy renews in May and the current Insurance ID Card I had provided to them initially only indicated coverage from the period May 2009 to present.
He said they needed additional proof that the car was covered under my name during the period July 2008 to May 2009.) I was able to E-mail him a digital copy of my May 2008 to May 2009 Insurance ID and he confirmed receipt immediately via telephone. Mr. Vanderstyne told me at that point that I should be able to take delivery of my new Toyota on Wednesday July 29th or Thursday July 30th.
He indicated that, if they were unable to complete all the detailed transactions required for the CARS Program on the 29th, he would call me on the 30th to give me an “update” on the status of the process. Having not heard from the dealership by mid-day on July 30th, I called Mr. Vanderstyne to find out what was going-on with our deal. He explained that they were still “having problems” with the CARS Program and that they would also need the original copy of my NYS Certificate of Title in order to complete the process.(The document is printed in such a way that it cannot be accurately copied with a photocopier as a protection against fraudulent reproduction.).
I E-mailed him a high quality color image of my Certificate of Title but he indicated that it would not be sufficient and I agreed to meet him when they opened for business on the morning of July 31st to hand-over my original Certificate of Title. He assured me at that time that I would be able to take delivery of the new Toyota by 3PM on Saturday, August 1st, 2009 at the latest.
As you know, the US Government put a “HOLD” on the CARS Program at midnight on July 30th, 2009 because they felt more deals were in-process than had been budgeted for. I was becoming very concerned at that point that Vanderstyne Toyota-Scion had somehow bungled the processing of my deal under the Program.
Even though I signed my Purchase Agreement with them on the FIRST DAY OF THE PROGRAM they had been unable to close the deal in a week. I had provided them with every piece of documentation that was required of me at the time I signed the original Purchase Agreement. So many deals had already been approved that the government was putting a HOLD on the Program, yet the promised delivery date for my new Toyota had been pushed back 3 times and they were asking me to bring back a piece of documentation that I had given them on Day One!
Something is clearly wrong here and I am not liking the looks of it! After waiting for Mr. Vanderstyne at his desk for a half-hour after the time he indicated he would be there on the morning of July 31st, I asked him if I could see the car that they had obtained for me. He said “Sure, let me get the keys. It’s right out in back.”, to which I replied, “Good, because I intend to leave your property today with either a refund of my deposit on the deal or at the wheel of my new Toyota!”
He responded that it would be impossible for me to take the car that day because they had not yet succeeded in completing the paperwork to satisfy the CARS Program without my original Certificate of Title. That is where you lost your sale. I informed him that I would prefer to have my deposit refunded and he produced a copy of a hand-written request that a check be mailed to me, but first he commented that, “If we let you take that car now it would leave us “holding the bag” for the $4500 (CARS Program allowance on the deal).”
Only an hour before my exchange with Mr. Vanderstyne, I heard the President of the Rochester (NY) Automobile Dealers Association state in a live local TV News interview that the CARS Program DID, in fact, require the Dealer to “hold the bag” for the government allowance BY DESIGN in order to simplify the process for the customer! I thought at that point I had finally gotten to the bottom of the problem and that Vanderstyne Toyota-Scion had been trying to “stall” the deal until they could have the money from the government in-hand, but there was more!
I mentioned at the beginning of this story that Mr. Vanderstyne had E-mailed me a copy of the invoice for the car I was supposedly purchasing and that it provided significant detail on that vehicle. The color stated on the Invoice I received was “Meterorite Metallic” (Gray), as I left the Vanderstyne property I drove around the back and I saw only one 2009 Yaris 2-door there – a white one!
I now suspect that, along with their business incompetence (or sheer audacious greed!) in negotiating the details of the government CARS Program (and/or “stalling” me until they had the government allowance they did not want to “hold the bag” for) the process had been complicated by their inability to obtain the “dealer trade” for the car they had originally offered to me. White is, in fact, not my favorite color, but that is not the point – and there is even more to the story… I went directly to the local Honda dealer and told a salesman there my story.
On the prospect that the CARS Program will be re-started soon, I gave him all the documentation that would be needed to make a purchase from them at that point. He copied everything except my Certificate of Title, indicating that it would not be required unless and until we were ready to close a deal. (I honestly prefer the Toyota Yaris to the competitive Honda Fit. Vanderstyne Toyota, though, is the only Toyota dealership within a reasonable distance from my home – a consideration I feel is important in order for me to meet all the service requirements under the Toyota new car warranty. When Vanderstyne failed to close this deal, Toyota, unfortunately, lost a sale.)
About an hour after I returned home my wife took a phone call from the “Business Manager" at Vanderstyne Toyota-Scion. In the course of trying to convince her that I should reconsider my decision to give-up on the deal, he asserted that the salesman had originally promised me a delivery date of August 7th or 8th on my new Toyota. That is entirely untrue and I feel it was highly unethical of him to lie to my wife about that!
If it were true that I had been told it would take that long to complete the deal why was I getting calls every two days promising another delivery date prior to August 7th? (And why would I have been asked to wait so long for a vehicle that was already on their lot?) The answer to both the foregoing questions is, obviously, that Vanderstyne wanted my original NYS Certificate of Title in order to “game” the CARS System and get their cash from the government in-hand before transferring ownership of a new Toyota to me! I respectfully suggest that, should Toyota Motor Company find that you need to terminate your relationship with any of your US dealers due to business conditions (As have GM and Chrysler) you move Vanderstyne Toyota-Scion’s name to the top of the list!
You have been disgraced by association with such an incompetent and/or unscrupulous operation, and I know that the Toyota people in Japan would be mortified to hear that! I thank you for taking the time to read this letter. I wish there were something else I could suggest that you could do to rectify this situation but I have no ideas at this time. Please feel free to call me for clarification or further discussion of any of the information I am providing in this letter.
To: Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. 19001 South Western Ave. Dept. WC11 Torrance, CA 9050
Dear Sir or Madam: I am writing to inform you that the incompetence of one of your dealers, Vanderstyne Toyota-Scion in Rochester, NY has cost Toyota Motor Company a sale!
Early in the week of July 20-24, 2009 my wife and I drove a new 2009 Toyota Yaris 2-door at Vanderstyne. We also drove a Honda Fit at a nearby Honda dealer and decided we liked the Toyota better than the Honda. The Yaris we drove had some expensive options that we did not want but the salesman, Jay Vanderstyne, assured us that he could locate a “dealer-trade” with pretty much the equipment we wanted and would be able to close a deal with us on July 24th under the US Government “Car Allowance Rebate System” (CARS Program) that was to go into effect on that date.
On the 24th Mr. Vanderstyne contacted me via E-mail to let me know that he had located a vehicle that would meet our specifications. (The E-mail included an invoice for the vehicle providing detailed information about the equipment, pricing, and even the color and VIN for the vehicle.) I replied to his E-mail immediately making him an offer on the car and he accepted my offer and confirmed that they were prepared to begin processing the deal under the CARS Program immediately.
I gathered all the paperwork I thought would be required for the government (Mr. Vanderstyne was not specific at all about what was needed other than a check in the amount of $500 as a deposit!) and went right in to the dealership to complete a Purchase Agreement. At the time my Purchase Agreement was completed I provided Mr. Vanderstyne with my New York State DMV Registration for the (CARS Program eligible) car I was trading, my NYS Driver’s License, and my current NYS Insurance ID card to photocopy for documentation under the CARS Program. I also handed him my original copy of my NYS Certificate of Title showing no liens or encumbrances on the vehicle – he also photocopied that and returned all the original documents to me. Mr. Vanderstyne then informed me that I should be able to take delivery of my new Toyota on Monday or Tuesday (July 27th or 28th, 2009) and that he would be in touch if he needed any further information.
On Monday July 27th, 2009 I went to my Bank and drew a Cashier’s Check in the full amount of the outstanding balance for the transaction shown on the Purchase Agreement so as to be prepared to take delivery of the car the following day.
On Tuesday, July 27th, 2009 Mr. Vanderstyne called to indicate that they were “having some problems” with the CARS Program process and that they would need me to FAX or E-mail them additional proof that my vehicle had been insured for the past twelve months. (My policy renews in May and the current Insurance ID Card I had provided to them initially only indicated coverage from the period May 2009 to present.
He said they needed additional proof that the car was covered under my name during the period July 2008 to May 2009.) I was able to E-mail him a digital copy of my May 2008 to May 2009 Insurance ID and he confirmed receipt immediately via telephone. Mr. Vanderstyne told me at that point that I should be able to take delivery of my new Toyota on Wednesday July 29th or Thursday July 30th.
He indicated that, if they were unable to complete all the detailed transactions required for the CARS Program on the 29th, he would call me on the 30th to give me an “update” on the status of the process. Having not heard from the dealership by mid-day on July 30th, I called Mr. Vanderstyne to find out what was going-on with our deal. He explained that they were still “having problems” with the CARS Program and that they would also need the original copy of my NYS Certificate of Title in order to complete the process.(The document is printed in such a way that it cannot be accurately copied with a photocopier as a protection against fraudulent reproduction.).
I E-mailed him a high quality color image of my Certificate of Title but he indicated that it would not be sufficient and I agreed to meet him when they opened for business on the morning of July 31st to hand-over my original Certificate of Title. He assured me at that time that I would be able to take delivery of the new Toyota by 3PM on Saturday, August 1st, 2009 at the latest.
As you know, the US Government put a “HOLD” on the CARS Program at midnight on July 30th, 2009 because they felt more deals were in-process than had been budgeted for. I was becoming very concerned at that point that Vanderstyne Toyota-Scion had somehow bungled the processing of my deal under the Program.
Even though I signed my Purchase Agreement with them on the FIRST DAY OF THE PROGRAM they had been unable to close the deal in a week. I had provided them with every piece of documentation that was required of me at the time I signed the original Purchase Agreement. So many deals had already been approved that the government was putting a HOLD on the Program, yet the promised delivery date for my new Toyota had been pushed back 3 times and they were asking me to bring back a piece of documentation that I had given them on Day One!
Something is clearly wrong here and I am not liking the looks of it! After waiting for Mr. Vanderstyne at his desk for a half-hour after the time he indicated he would be there on the morning of July 31st, I asked him if I could see the car that they had obtained for me. He said “Sure, let me get the keys. It’s right out in back.”, to which I replied, “Good, because I intend to leave your property today with either a refund of my deposit on the deal or at the wheel of my new Toyota!”
He responded that it would be impossible for me to take the car that day because they had not yet succeeded in completing the paperwork to satisfy the CARS Program without my original Certificate of Title. That is where you lost your sale. I informed him that I would prefer to have my deposit refunded and he produced a copy of a hand-written request that a check be mailed to me, but first he commented that, “If we let you take that car now it would leave us “holding the bag” for the $4500 (CARS Program allowance on the deal).”
Only an hour before my exchange with Mr. Vanderstyne, I heard the President of the Rochester (NY) Automobile Dealers Association state in a live local TV News interview that the CARS Program DID, in fact, require the Dealer to “hold the bag” for the government allowance BY DESIGN in order to simplify the process for the customer! I thought at that point I had finally gotten to the bottom of the problem and that Vanderstyne Toyota-Scion had been trying to “stall” the deal until they could have the money from the government in-hand, but there was more!
I mentioned at the beginning of this story that Mr. Vanderstyne had E-mailed me a copy of the invoice for the car I was supposedly purchasing and that it provided significant detail on that vehicle. The color stated on the Invoice I received was “Meterorite Metallic” (Gray), as I left the Vanderstyne property I drove around the back and I saw only one 2009 Yaris 2-door there – a white one!
I now suspect that, along with their business incompetence (or sheer audacious greed!) in negotiating the details of the government CARS Program (and/or “stalling” me until they had the government allowance they did not want to “hold the bag” for) the process had been complicated by their inability to obtain the “dealer trade” for the car they had originally offered to me. White is, in fact, not my favorite color, but that is not the point – and there is even more to the story… I went directly to the local Honda dealer and told a salesman there my story.
On the prospect that the CARS Program will be re-started soon, I gave him all the documentation that would be needed to make a purchase from them at that point. He copied everything except my Certificate of Title, indicating that it would not be required unless and until we were ready to close a deal. (I honestly prefer the Toyota Yaris to the competitive Honda Fit. Vanderstyne Toyota, though, is the only Toyota dealership within a reasonable distance from my home – a consideration I feel is important in order for me to meet all the service requirements under the Toyota new car warranty. When Vanderstyne failed to close this deal, Toyota, unfortunately, lost a sale.)
About an hour after I returned home my wife took a phone call from the “Business Manager" at Vanderstyne Toyota-Scion. In the course of trying to convince her that I should reconsider my decision to give-up on the deal, he asserted that the salesman had originally promised me a delivery date of August 7th or 8th on my new Toyota. That is entirely untrue and I feel it was highly unethical of him to lie to my wife about that!
If it were true that I had been told it would take that long to complete the deal why was I getting calls every two days promising another delivery date prior to August 7th? (And why would I have been asked to wait so long for a vehicle that was already on their lot?) The answer to both the foregoing questions is, obviously, that Vanderstyne wanted my original NYS Certificate of Title in order to “game” the CARS System and get their cash from the government in-hand before transferring ownership of a new Toyota to me! I respectfully suggest that, should Toyota Motor Company find that you need to terminate your relationship with any of your US dealers due to business conditions (As have GM and Chrysler) you move Vanderstyne Toyota-Scion’s name to the top of the list!
You have been disgraced by association with such an incompetent and/or unscrupulous operation, and I know that the Toyota people in Japan would be mortified to hear that! I thank you for taking the time to read this letter. I wish there were something else I could suggest that you could do to rectify this situation but I have no ideas at this time. Please feel free to call me for clarification or further discussion of any of the information I am providing in this letter.
The program was NOT placed on hold.
CARS Back on the Road
The CAR Allowance Rebate System (CARS) is still operating.
Consumers can still take advantage of the government program and receive a $3,500 or $4,500 discount for their trade-in vehicle when purchasing or leasing a new vehicle.
Check back often to this site for updates and information.
From: CARS.gov - Car Allowance Rebate System - Home - Formerly Referred to as “Cash for Clunkers”
-------
You ARE required to give them your original Certificate of Title. They can't process ANYTHING to do with the CARS program without it. Page 11 of The Amendment. And it's in The Rule as well.
Check out the other three threads already in progress on the rules.
Read the rules yourself, if you have not yet done so, here, download "The Rule" and "The Amendment":
CARS.gov - Car Allowance Rebate System - Official Information - Formerly Referred to as “Cash for Clunkers”
Last edited by TaffetaWhite; 08-04-2009 at 04:35 AM.
#29
08-04-2009, 07:57 AM
The program was NOT placed on hold.
CARS Back on the Road
The CAR Allowance Rebate System (CARS) is still operating.
Consumers can still take advantage of the government program and receive a $3,500 or $4,500 discount for their trade-in vehicle when purchasing or leasing a new vehicle.
Check back often to this site for updates and information.
.......
CARS Back on the Road
The CAR Allowance Rebate System (CARS) is still operating.
Consumers can still take advantage of the government program and receive a $3,500 or $4,500 discount for their trade-in vehicle when purchasing or leasing a new vehicle.
Check back often to this site for updates and information.
.......
#30
08-04-2009, 09:24 AM
He had the original title with him when he first went to the Scion dealer. At this point they're either honestly clueless or it's just another stall tactic.
#31
08-04-2009, 09:24 AM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: West Coast, USA
Posts: 1,448
I bet the big post was a copy and paste from another program or email. Because sometimes when I paste over portions of a news story, it does NOT include the breaks, the paragraphs, the indentations, the returns.
Other times there is some html gibberish in the paste, and I have no idea why.
Or it pastes in something I didn't post. Some of the news articles provide the helpful link back to the main story, so I don't have to. I can copy a couple of paragraphs, paste them, and it makes the link and says "Read more:" I think that's great! One of the New York sites, I believe.
#32
08-04-2009, 09:54 AM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: West Coast, USA
Posts: 1,448
Not because they are dumb, necessarily, but it's a ton of new paperwork.
There was a "webinar" provided by the NHTSA, that turned out to give wrong information. The new information was sent out on Friday (had to do with taxes).
The Addendum, that's new since I was on the download page at CARS.gov which goes into further detail on the concerns many people have had having to do with destroying the vehicle's engine before the paperwork has been approved.
Citigroup screwed up the processing of the paperwork (they're the ones contracted to do the processing)
The thing about being out of money, then not being out, then the program suspended, then not being suspended, then only good through the weekend, then good only through Tuesday, now good through the end of the week...
Of course the dealer doesn't know what's going on. NOBODY knows what's going on. It's a big mess.
Add in that the dealers sold a lot more than were expected, so that many cars that WERE just sitting around are sold. If the inventory isn't updated when a dealer checks someone elses stock, they think the car is there. But it's not. It's being held for someone else on the CARS program.
It might even show as being "in the inventory" as it hasn't been sold and delivered...but it's NOT available for sale, really.
I drove by a local Honda dealer, and there was an entire ROW of cars gone. I saw only a couple of Fits. I didn't slow WAY down, but the Fit is pretty unique on the Honda lot. When I got home, I checked their online stock, and supposedly they had almost 30. Where are those cars? I didn't miss seeing THIRTY Fits.
Since it's a big mess, and hasn't been all that clear, in the other threads we had many questions that we helped each other answer. And for the folks that participated in the threads, they got through the big mess. They knew what to bring, they knew what the forms looked like, what the dealer had to do, etc.
That made them prepared customers. Some deals took only a few hours. Other deals had been going on for awhile, like doing a deposit on a specific car ahead of time.
My suggestion is that if the current dealer isn't dealing, then find one who will. Seriously.
We already DO that at the grocery store. We look for the shortest line. And sometimes bail out of a line that isn't moving at all, and take the last place in a new line, because it's zipping along.
We know what kind of car, and all the paperwork is gathered. Just need to find a dealer now that will do the deal. Time is running OUT.
If it passes the Senate, then there will be a slight reprieve, more time, more money, a chance for dealers to replenish some of their stock. There are sure to be cars in the process of being made and along every step of the distribution stages. Cars on ships heading to port.
There may be a bit more selection at that time, but that's ONLY if the Senate approves the additional funding.
As of right now, though, there is until Friday. To do a deal. That's it.
#33
08-05-2009, 07:41 AM
dgs;
"Taffeta White" is correct in stating that my "Ill-formatted" message was a cut-and-paste from another document that got un-formatted somehow - sorry for the unintelligible run-on paragraph!
It was an E-mail to Toyota Motors Sales, USA sent on 8/1 - still no reply from them as of today (8/5)...
Honda dealer called me on 8/1 saying they were looking for a Fit for us (only one he has is Manual Trans, wife wants automatic) and would call back Monday. No calls thru 8/4, even though he has all the paperwork required for C4C except the original title (I showed it to him and he told me he would not need it 'til he "finds" a Fit.).
I guess he has not found an automatic car for us yet, but should have called!
I will end up selling my clunker beside the road and buying used, which is what I would have done anyways if the Gov't had not "cooked-up" this insane C4C scheme. The part of it that irks me is that they will get the money to pay for this from taxpayers and I'm not sure the improved Air Quality will be worth my share of the cost! If I had been able to swing a deal under the plan at least I would have gotten the additional value out of my old car to offset the taxes...
"Taffeta White" is correct in stating that my "Ill-formatted" message was a cut-and-paste from another document that got un-formatted somehow - sorry for the unintelligible run-on paragraph!
It was an E-mail to Toyota Motors Sales, USA sent on 8/1 - still no reply from them as of today (8/5)...
Honda dealer called me on 8/1 saying they were looking for a Fit for us (only one he has is Manual Trans, wife wants automatic) and would call back Monday. No calls thru 8/4, even though he has all the paperwork required for C4C except the original title (I showed it to him and he told me he would not need it 'til he "finds" a Fit.).
I guess he has not found an automatic car for us yet, but should have called!
I will end up selling my clunker beside the road and buying used, which is what I would have done anyways if the Gov't had not "cooked-up" this insane C4C scheme. The part of it that irks me is that they will get the money to pay for this from taxpayers and I'm not sure the improved Air Quality will be worth my share of the cost! If I had been able to swing a deal under the plan at least I would have gotten the additional value out of my old car to offset the taxes...
#34
08-05-2009, 08:20 AM
This salesman is playin dirty pool. File your experience/complaint with the dealership management and/or owners, then send a fax and snail email a copy to:
By Phone
At our toll-free number: 1-800-999-1009
By Fax
(310) 783-3023 (24 Hours)
By Mail
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
1919 Torrance Boulevard
Mail Stop: 500 - 2N - 7D
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
Go here and post your experience, using the Dealership name/location:
https://www.ahm-ownerlink.com/login.asp
CARS is a media hot topic right now. So go to your local news websites and look for the "got news?" links and send them copies as well.
Be sure to explain to the delaership and American Honda Corporate contacts that you intend to take your experience to the media.
As an exmaple of a good experience.....I bought my Fit last Wednesday, and I just got the check cut to them yesterday morning. Only call or concern i've gotten from them is a friendly reminder they hadn't yet rec'd payment from my bank, and even then they did it in an indirect way - citing that my title work is waiting on payment. If the can be cool with me driving a new car when they haven't been paid yet, then these douchbags yer working with should be ok with a few missing signature.
Finally thought....when you buy a car from the dealer who does the title paperwork, you sign a document giving them power-of-attorney. I would think this applies to all documents on your behalf as it relates to this deal that you have not already signed, but maybe not - worth mentioning...
By Phone
At our toll-free number: 1-800-999-1009
By Fax
(310) 783-3023 (24 Hours)
By Mail
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
1919 Torrance Boulevard
Mail Stop: 500 - 2N - 7D
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
Go here and post your experience, using the Dealership name/location:
https://www.ahm-ownerlink.com/login.asp
CARS is a media hot topic right now. So go to your local news websites and look for the "got news?" links and send them copies as well.
Be sure to explain to the delaership and American Honda Corporate contacts that you intend to take your experience to the media.
As an exmaple of a good experience.....I bought my Fit last Wednesday, and I just got the check cut to them yesterday morning. Only call or concern i've gotten from them is a friendly reminder they hadn't yet rec'd payment from my bank, and even then they did it in an indirect way - citing that my title work is waiting on payment. If the can be cool with me driving a new car when they haven't been paid yet, then these douchbags yer working with should be ok with a few missing signature.
Finally thought....when you buy a car from the dealer who does the title paperwork, you sign a document giving them power-of-attorney. I would think this applies to all documents on your behalf as it relates to this deal that you have not already signed, but maybe not - worth mentioning...
#35
08-05-2009, 09:03 AM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: West Coast, USA
Posts: 1,448
dgs;
"Taffeta White" is correct in stating that my "Ill-formatted" message was a cut-and-paste from another document that got un-formatted somehow - sorry for the unintelligible run-on paragraph!
It was an E-mail to Toyota Motors Sales, USA sent on 8/1 - still no reply from them as of today (8/5)...
Honda dealer called me on 8/1 saying they were looking for a Fit for us (only one he has is Manual Trans, wife wants automatic) and would call back Monday. No calls thru 8/4, even though he has all the paperwork required for C4C except the original title (I showed it to him and he told me he would not need it 'til he "finds" a Fit.).
I guess he has not found an automatic car for us yet, but should have called!
I will end up selling my clunker beside the road and buying used, which is what I would have done anyways if the Gov't had not "cooked-up" this insane C4C scheme. The part of it that irks me is that they will get the money to pay for this from taxpayers and I'm not sure the improved Air Quality will be worth my share of the cost! If I had been able to swing a deal under the plan at least I would have gotten the additional value out of my old car to offset the taxes...
"Taffeta White" is correct in stating that my "Ill-formatted" message was a cut-and-paste from another document that got un-formatted somehow - sorry for the unintelligible run-on paragraph!
It was an E-mail to Toyota Motors Sales, USA sent on 8/1 - still no reply from them as of today (8/5)...
Honda dealer called me on 8/1 saying they were looking for a Fit for us (only one he has is Manual Trans, wife wants automatic) and would call back Monday. No calls thru 8/4, even though he has all the paperwork required for C4C except the original title (I showed it to him and he told me he would not need it 'til he "finds" a Fit.).
I guess he has not found an automatic car for us yet, but should have called!
I will end up selling my clunker beside the road and buying used, which is what I would have done anyways if the Gov't had not "cooked-up" this insane C4C scheme. The part of it that irks me is that they will get the money to pay for this from taxpayers and I'm not sure the improved Air Quality will be worth my share of the cost! If I had been able to swing a deal under the plan at least I would have gotten the additional value out of my old car to offset the taxes...
This means you will probably have the opportunity to make a deal, on the car of YOUR choice, when the car comes in to a dealership.
And it does not have to be the dealership you are having problems at.
One of the news links I plugged in last night in the Clunker News thread over here:
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/gene...tml#post716037
had to do with dealers running low on inventory.
Here's the link to the story that mentions inventory problems for dealers and manufacturers:
Cash-for-clunkers leaves car lots looking markedly empty - USATODAY.com
It might sound like shenanigans to say "they're out of cars" but "they're out of cars".
Said by one dealer:
""I'd buy another 300 Civics tonight," says Brian Benstock, general manager of Paragon Honda and Acura in Woodside, N.Y. Dealer Adam Lee says he would normally have 150 new cars on the lot at his family's Lee Toyota in Topsham, Maine. On Tuesday, he had 14.
-------
Let's find a new dealer for you. Are you able to get to other dealerships? Or are you in a remote location that has only one dealer in 300 miles? Have you checked other dealer inventories online or by calling or emailing? Can we try to get you into a Fit in the next few days if we can find one somewhere else?
I see you want an automatic. Did you have a preference of color? The Fit already comes super-well equipped. It's not like you'll get stuck with a car that only has three square wheels. Most everything else can be added on, later, after the fuss has died down. Although the big traffic is in the sales area, not in the service area.
What do you need? Let's try to find it!
#36
08-05-2009, 09:36 AM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: West Coast, USA
Posts: 1,448
http://www.vehix.com/inventory/Search.aspx?Limit=25&N=126%2B4294966982%2B42949624 47%2B4294967230&Ne=5&Nf=pLocation|GCLT%2043.306598 6633301%2C-77.9234008789063%20482.8041&AllNE=True&RadiusInMil es=200&PostalCode=14464
There are no cars.
They're all in Pennsylvania. Uh, not all the cars in the world...just the 35 above, at four different dealers.
Here are names, addresses and links, I don't even know if you can buy out of state or how that works. Click on any of the cars you see, and you'll get more info, along with a little contact section on the right side, that will send an inquiry to them. Or you can just call them.
Delaney Chevrolet Buick H...
626 Water St Indiana, PA 15701 (866) 331-2748
http://www.vehix.com/inventory/Search.aspx?Limit=25&N=4294966982%2B4294962447%2B4 294967230&Ne=5&Nf=pLocation|GCLT%2043.306598663330 1%2C-77.9234008789063%2040030.3033248679&PostalCode=144 64&RadiusInMiles=24873.6309353221&SellerInfoID=5F0 0000000098C&AllNE=True
------
Matt Burne Honda
1110 Wyoming Ave Scranton, PA 18509 (866) 656-0546
http://www.vehix.com/inventory/Search.aspx?Limit=25&N=4294966982%2B4294962447%2B4 294967230&Ne=5&Nf=pLocation|GCLT%2043.306598663330 1%2C-77.9234008789063%2040030.3033248679&PostalCode=144 64&RadiusInMiles=24873.6309353221&SellerInfoID=5F0 00000007785&AllNE=True
------
Honda North
630 Evans Road Butler, PA 16001 (800) 798-9281
http://www.vehix.com/inventory/Search.aspx?Limit=25&N=4294966982%2B4294962447%2B4 294929746%2B4294967230&Ne=5&Nf=pLocation|GCLT%2043 .3065986633301%2C-77.9234008789063%2040030.3033248679&PostalCode=144 64&RadiusInMiles=24873.6309353221&SellerInfoID=5F0 000000007C3&AllNE=True
------
MotorWorld Automotive Gro...
150 Motorworld Dr Wilkes Barre, PA 18702 (877) 472-5885
http://www.vehix.com/inventory/Search.aspx?Limit=25&N=4294966982%2B4294962447%2B4 294967230&Ne=5&Nf=pLocation|GCLT%2043.306598663330 1%2C-77.9234008789063%2040030.3033248679&PostalCode=144 64&RadiusInMiles=24873.6309353221&SellerInfoID=5F0 00000003195&AllNE=True
#37
08-05-2009, 10:01 AM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: West Coast, USA
Posts: 1,448
mr5by5:
Ralph Honda shows one black automatic base:
Ralph | Done Right
Ralph Honda
3939 W Ridge Rd
Rochester, NY 14626
(585)225-3200
------
John Holtz supposedly has a few, but I'm going to bet they haven't updated their inventory:
John Holtz Brings You The World - New Car Inventory
John Holtz Honda
3925 W Henrietta Rd
Rochester, NY 14623
(585)334-0880
------
Dick Ide doesn't show inventory online.
Dick Ide Honda
875 Panorama Trl S
Rochester, NY 14625
(585)586-2820
------
Ontario Honda show a few Fits, Fit Sports, and one Fit Sport/Nav, but they don't list the transmissions!
Ontario Honda - New Inventory
Ontario Honda
2311 Rochester Rd
Canandaigua, NY 14424
(585)396-3000
-------
Ooops. Left out Lia, they don't show any Fits:
Lia Honda
4891 Transit Rd
Williamsville, NY 14221
(716)632-3323
That's the top 5 closest to the generic zip code for the city mentioned of Hamlin.
Ralph Honda shows one black automatic base:
Ralph | Done Right
Ralph Honda
3939 W Ridge Rd
Rochester, NY 14626
(585)225-3200
------
John Holtz supposedly has a few, but I'm going to bet they haven't updated their inventory:
John Holtz Brings You The World - New Car Inventory
John Holtz Honda
3925 W Henrietta Rd
Rochester, NY 14623
(585)334-0880
------
Dick Ide doesn't show inventory online.
Dick Ide Honda
875 Panorama Trl S
Rochester, NY 14625
(585)586-2820
------
Ontario Honda show a few Fits, Fit Sports, and one Fit Sport/Nav, but they don't list the transmissions!
Ontario Honda - New Inventory
Ontario Honda
2311 Rochester Rd
Canandaigua, NY 14424
(585)396-3000
-------
Ooops. Left out Lia, they don't show any Fits:
Lia Honda
4891 Transit Rd
Williamsville, NY 14221
(716)632-3323
That's the top 5 closest to the generic zip code for the city mentioned of Hamlin.
Last edited by TaffetaWhite; 08-05-2009 at 10:02 AM. Reason: Left out Lia Honda
#38
08-05-2009, 11:27 AM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: West Coast, USA
Posts: 1,448
For the Ontario Honda, based on prices, they have:
3 Base Fit Auto in Red, Storm Silver, and one of the two blue colors.
2 Fit Sport Automatic (one Orange, one either black or blue, probably black) and
1 Fit Sport Nav Auto in Blackberry.
1 unpriced model, that says it has remote locking, so I'd guess the Sport model, no idea if it's stick or auto
3 Base Fit Auto in Red, Storm Silver, and one of the two blue colors.
2 Fit Sport Automatic (one Orange, one either black or blue, probably black) and
1 Fit Sport Nav Auto in Blackberry.
1 unpriced model, that says it has remote locking, so I'd guess the Sport model, no idea if it's stick or auto
#40
08-05-2009, 11:56 AM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: West Coast, USA
Posts: 1,448
With the amount of business the dealers are seeing, there are probably salespeople sleeping on the showroom floor when it's closed. Poor dears are undoubtedly exhausted.