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Unorthodox Pulley - is it safe?

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Old 06-07-2009 | 05:08 AM
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Unorthodox Pulley - is it safe?

I was doing some searching about the Unorthodox Racing Pulley and came across horror stories about how it has screwed with peoples engines because it will not properly dampen harmonics. Is there any substance to these claims? Will it cause any problems if I buy it? Of course I assume it will void the warranty of every moving part in the engine. I can always put the stock pulley back on, right? Is it worth the risk for a few pounds of rotational mass?


 
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Old 06-07-2009 | 05:50 AM
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I've had it on my car for 30k miles so far, and no problems, and i beat on my car (tracks, and canyons, constant redlining, etc). I have the crank pulley installed but i don't have the alternator one done yet. Just gotta find the time to pull it out.
 
  #3  
Old 06-07-2009 | 06:26 AM
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I have used Unorthodox Racing lightweight pulleys on 4 cars, and have a set now on my 09. No issues.
Engines do have a crank torsional twist frequency, but with this little short engine it (dangerous crank whip) would happen at above 8000+ RPM or higher. (shorter guitar string= higher frequency, longer guitar string= lower frequency)

Now a long engine, like a BMW straight 6 the frequency, is a lot lower, and if you trace the horror stories....it is most of the time with a straight 6, or engines that are rev'ed past 8000 RPM for extended periods, stroked and boosted engines or American V8's which are externally balanced

Here is good reading from a Toyota forum, posted by an engineer.

From a lot of experience building actual racing engines, building winning race cars and building winning and reliable race cars I can tell you that a solid hub underdrive pulley is not likely to cause engine failure in a modern mildly modified 4 cylinder engine.

My qualifications are that I was an engineer at TRD many years ago, I was an OEM engineer at Nissan spending the last several years working on the Nismo project and am now a motorsports engineering consultant. I have been an automotive and motorsports engineer for 20 years. I also happen to be a consultant for the Jackson Dawson team.

On a relatively under stressed near stock motor like the TC with bolt ons or low amounts of boost like what we will be running and I suspect what most of the people on this forum probably run, an underdrive pulley will not have any life threatening consiqunces for your motors. The factory pulley with a twin ring damper is primarily for wide band NVH (noise vibration harshness) suppression from the engine and driveline. Removing the damper and replacing it with a solid hub underdrive pulley will cause additional NVH but not harm the engine.

The engineering reasons are that an inline 4 cylinder engine has a short stiff strong crank with a relativly high natural frequency. The dangerous second harmonic that can cause damage occurs at an rpm that this sort of engine will never see, in the area of 9500 rpm.

Now the stock harmonic balancer is not tuned for attenuation at this sort of rpm either so the argument is somewhat of a moot point.

Now 4 cylinders that are pushing the limit with lots of revs, wimpy cranks, super long strokes, lots of boost and dwelling in the upper rpm ranges for long periods of time can benifit from a damper designed to deal with this sort of operation but our engine is not like this due to rules contraints and probably very few people with this motor on this forum push the envelope that hard.

The tC engine has a strong and stiff bottom end that is overbuilt if anything for our intended use. It has an internaly balanced crankshaft, It has a chain driven oil pump which is less like to break due to torsional vibration like the more common crank snout driven georotor type found on Honda and Nissan motors. Nothing is going to happen, not even in our road raced tC. Road racing is much more punishing on an engine than other motorsports. The engine is subjected to run times lasting anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes with the engine always in the upper ranges of its rpm limit. One race weekend is the equivelent of hundreds of 1/4 mile passes.

Some engines like the Nissan SR20 have to have an underdrive pulley to live at all under race conditions as the water pump cavitates at a low rpm. All SE-R Cup cars and probably most professional drift S chassis cars run an underdrive pulley. I can tell you that SE-R Cup cars are very reliable with engines lasting several seasons sometimes. The one in my car has lasted about 2.5 seasons and is still going strong. My personal 529 whp turbo SE-R has an underdrive pulley. I don't know of an SR engine that has failed due to a pulley. I know several guys that have had them for 200,000 miles.

The same goes for the VG, VQ, QR and GA engines. Many World Challange race cars use underdrive pulleys.

Is an underdrive pulley harmless to all engines? No it is not. Inline six cylinders when modified way past the simple bolt on stages will probably have problems. These engines reach critical harmonics at lower rpm due to the length of the crankshaft, this is in the 7500 rpm range, an rpm often reached by a performance engine. Now a BPU Supra or other mildly modded inline six will most likely be fine but one subjected to high rpm for long periods of time with lots of boost will probably suffer. In this case , the stock balancer is probably not adiquate either. In my experiance with I-6 Nissan RB engines the oil pump inner gear cracks first due to crank whip. For serious I-6 motors I use ATI or Fisher dampers. Crazy stroked out B series Honda motors with strokes approaching 100 mm will also crack their oil pump gears and racing Nissan KA motors crack blocks. These motors need to have the revs limited, dry sumps and other special prep to deal with vibration in extreme full race use in very highly modified form. American V8 engines are often externally balanced and it is critical not to use a solid hub pulley not designed for this application or damage to the engine will result.

Our tC engine and most people's here have motors that do not fall into the above category. Rest assured that your engine will not blow up and die or have a reduced life in street and even racing use with these parts. Will you notice more noise from the drivetrain and front end accessories, yes possibly.

I would bet that every "expert" that tells you otherwise here has little personal practical experiance with the subject.
 

Last edited by Tork; 06-07-2009 at 06:59 AM.
  #4  
Old 06-07-2009 | 07:12 AM
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i have no issue with it or what so ever..
 
  #5  
Old 06-07-2009 | 06:02 PM
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call me noob but, what do these pulleys do to the engine anyways?
 
  #6  
Old 06-07-2009 | 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by strmslvrfit
call me noob but, what do these pulleys do to the engine anyways?
Strmslvrfit, by replacing the OEM crankshaft pulley (which is heavier and acts and a harmonic damper) with a lighter one, it allows the engine to rev up more quickly and supposedly gives you horsepower the torque gains across the RPM band.
Do read the article in Post #3; very well written and informative.

Here's the link to Unorthodox Racing:

Unorthodox Racing
 

Last edited by Benggolf; 06-07-2009 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 06-07-2009 | 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by strmslvrfit
call me noob but, what do these pulleys do to the engine anyways?
Frees up a good 1&1/2 HP each pound removed from the crank (so about 4.5 HP with the Fit)
 
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Old 06-07-2009 | 07:44 PM
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wow thats an awesome read, sorry i didnt read it earlier, it looked long so i passed by it lol... where can i get a good deal on some pulleys?
 
  #9  
Old 06-07-2009 | 07:49 PM
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I have the set on my car, I would recommend the crank pulley but not the alternator pulley. After I put the alternator one on it started making a high pitch squealing sound whenever the engine accelerates, not enough to attract attention, but enough to bother me. It was almost the more difficult one of the set to install.

So far so good, no major issues.
 
  #10  
Old 06-07-2009 | 10:00 PM
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Wow, $277.00 on the Unorthedox Racing website. That is crazy for a non harmonic balancer pully set. For those who have this set...Is it worth it to you as far as price vs gain?
 
  #11  
Old 06-08-2009 | 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Sugarphreak
I have the set on my car, I would recommend the crank pulley but not the alternator pulley. After I put the alternator one on it started making a high pitch squealing sound whenever the engine accelerates, not enough to attract attention, but enough to bother me. It was almost the more difficult one of the set to install.

So far so good, no major issues.
Mine is fine w/both pulleys. I remember guys on the Nissan forums having that and they changed the belt to cure (belt wears in to stock pulleys, then doesn't grip the new pulleys?)

Originally Posted by JPGC
Wow, $277.00 on the Unorthedox Racing website. That is crazy for a non harmonic balancer pully set. For those who have this set...Is it worth it to you as far as price vs gain?
OK perhaps you didn't use the MPG calculator on the UR site. I paid $244 2 months ago but I would do it again at $277 but that is just me and how I look at things. Any time you reduce rotational mass, you almost certainly save fuel.
My way of thinking is this; (just to use a round number guesstimate)
lets say over 4 years I save $100 on fuel and then take the pulleys off and sell them on ebay for $100....the extra performance I enjoyed cost me $44 and 2 hours of my labor.

My lightweight SSR wheels will be fairly close to a break even as well.
 
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Old 06-08-2009 | 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tork
I have used Unorthodox Racing lightweight pulleys on 4 cars, and have a set now on my 09. No issues.
Engines do have a crank torsional twist frequency, but with this little short engine it (dangerous crank whip) would happen at above 8000+ RPM or higher. (shorter guitar string= higher frequency, longer guitar string= lower frequency)

Now a long engine, like a BMW straight 6 the frequency, is a lot lower, and if you trace the horror stories....it is most of the time with a straight 6, or engines that are rev'ed past 8000 RPM for extended periods, stroked and boosted engines or American V8's which are externally balanced

Here is good reading from a Toyota forum, posted by an engineer.

Thanks, that was good info. + rep! Also I did add a strip of chrome door edging to the bottom of my grille (had to remove the grille to get it on) - thanks for the idea from your write up!
 
  #13  
Old 06-09-2009 | 12:03 AM
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Lol, don't get me wrong, I understand the effect of lowering the rotational mass on fuel milege and I am considering getting these pullies as well as a set of lightweight rims. I have had either lightweight or underdrive pullies on most of the cars I have owned. I thought this was funny because I see that these pullies are available for purchase and I figure maybe $100-$150 for them, then I got to UR's website and almost choke. I don't mind spending the money for these pullies, it was a little surprising though.
 
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Old 06-09-2009 | 12:49 AM
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Type one racing makes one also, but only for the GD so far. Theres are only $162.
Type One Racing :: Engine :: Fit/Jazz (GD3/4) :: T1R Crankshaft pulley - Honda Fit 07-08 GD3
 
  #15  
Old 06-11-2009 | 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Bassplayer
Type one racing makes one also, but only for the GD so far. Theres are only $162.
Type One Racing :: Engine :: Fit/Jazz (GD3/4) :: T1R Crankshaft pulley - Honda Fit 07-08 GD3

Yeah, that seems a lot more realistic.
 
  #16  
Old 06-16-2009 | 12:38 AM
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Or you can try NST - The Leader In Honda Fit Pulleys for about $120. NST has a lot of happy customers on other Honda forums.
 
  #17  
Old 06-30-2011 | 02:26 PM
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FYI - Just talked to a salesman at NOPI. They didn't have the GE8 pulley kit in stock, so he called Unorthodox Racing to check on pricing and availability for me. UR told him they have discontinued making the GE8 pulley kit due to lack of demand (I hear it too often). Since they still list it on their web site, they might make it special order, but then it would probably be stupid expensive and not worth the money.

As if I haven't heard this before, UR complained that the Fit has evolved into nothing more than an A-B people mover (thanks, Honda), and people just don't see this as a platform to do much with other than save money on gas.
 
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Old 06-30-2011 | 02:53 PM
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Lyon, for most people on this forum I would say go for it, no problem.

For our purposes, when making 150hp/l or more, I would rather leave the dampened crank pulley on. You have considerably more cylinder pressure acting on the crank.

Just my $0.02.
 
  #19  
Old 06-30-2011 | 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Lyon[Nightroad]
Of course I assume it will void the warranty of every moving part in the engine.
In retrospect, this statement is hilarious.
 
  #20  
Old 07-01-2011 | 05:18 AM
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^ haha! That made my day. I certainly have come along way. This is really a non-issue to me now. I'd have no problem doing it but it's not worth the money even if they made it. You should feel how heavy the torque converter is on the other end, it's criminal.

Not surprised they stopped making them, even for the amateur home mechanic that crank pulley is a PIA. And as we know most fit owners are more interested in that 'stance' tomfoolery.
 
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