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Why Not A Hybrid?

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  #1  
Old 10-20-2008, 02:18 AM
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Arrow Why Not A Hybrid?

After test driving the new Fit for the second time, I really thought this car would have been a truly ideal candidate for mild to full hybrid technology.

It's small, light, nimble, looks decent, etc etc....

At the very least Honda could have put a start/stop system in this car so as not to waste fuel while sitting around doing nothing.

Given the current issues we face with energy, waste, pollution, etc...even though I really like the new Fit, I simply cannot bring myself to buy one due to these issues (or any regular IC powered vehicle). I know Honda is coming out with the Insight which seems more like a Prius than anything else, why limit the options so much? Cost? I don't buy it.

The sad part is that even though my wife and I don't even have children, we seem to care more about this planet and its future than people who do. I simply can't fathom why.

Any thoughts?
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:51 AM
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Cost and complexity, though they ARE engineering a Fit Hybrid, it's just not going to make it to the U.S. and Canada.
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:01 AM
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i have to agree i'm guessing if they come out with a fit hybrid it will no longer be a 16k car, probably cost as much as the prius
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:40 AM
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I don't understand why it would cost so much more? Look at the new Insight...isn't that supposed to be below $20K?
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:45 AM
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o i don't know i'm just guessing that it would be around the same price as the prius, but since they're coming out with the insight then why would they be coming out with a hybrid fit?
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:58 AM
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One word for you - batteries. Hybrids are at most a bridge technology IMO - its still too expensive, and the batteries in them aren't environmentally friendly either. Recycling helps some but the cost of ownership makes them far less viable from an economic perspective... and its not like they're giving you free battery changes for life either. And batteries add weight to a car too.

Hybrids IMO are a fad and not nearly as green as they are made out to be. Its like the whole ethanol boondoggle... another silly stupid idea, let's increase our food costs, use up tons of water, to make ethanol. That's my problem with electric vehicles too - batteries, plus we still have to generate the power and unless we do stuff like nuclear (which is clean but a lot of greenies oppose) our power generation is still pretty antiquated.

I'd personally would rather see more effort put into clean diesel (something the US doesn't get that Europe does), natural gas (we have plenty of natural gas, we just need infrastructure investments) and hydrogen (this would be more experimental vs. the 1st two options).

Give me an i-DTEC Fit. Give me one that runs on natural gas.

And while we're concerned for the planet - instead of tax breaks for hybrids, we should be giving tax breaks for people to replace oil heating with natural gas - far cleaner and there's plenty of natural gas vs. oil.
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:59 AM
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The batteries are what make hybrids so expensive, I myself would never buy a car where I knew the battery would be an issue a couple years down the line. After financing I'm going to be paying a little over $21,000 for my Fit, I can't imagine what a hybrid would be. Now that gas prices are dropping, no one's going to care about hybrids as much because all they care about is the cost that affects them. Besides, me getting 45mpg, I see no reason why I would spend the extra money and worry about maintenance for a car that maybe gets 5-10 more mpg.
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:36 AM
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Why make a hybrid model for the Fit when Honda already has plans to bring a dedicated hybrid model (the new Insight) to North America? Its targeted at the low end of the hybrid market, making it the most affordable hybrid available. Honda also has plans to bring in another hybrid model- the CRZ. Also, Honda already has hybrid models on the Civic and Accord. The Fit is Honda's entry vehicle, its target market is extremely price sensitive. The added costs to incorporate a hybrid drivetrain would essentially make the Fit a Civic competitor.

I do think the Fit will eventually get a hybrid version but just not in this generation. As gas prices continue to rise and as hybrid technology prices continues to fall, gasoline-hybrids will become more mainstream. Thats when we'll see a Fit hybrid.
 
  #9  
Old 10-20-2008, 10:29 AM
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they do. its called a Civic Hybrid.
 
  #10  
Old 10-20-2008, 12:31 PM
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kingofpicklez

o i don't know i'm just guessing that it would be around the same price as the prius, but since they're coming out with the insight then why would they be coming out with a hybrid fit?
Variety? They are two totally different cars? Give people a choice I guess. I mean why does Toyota offer a Camry and Prius hybrid?

Plus, it's the technology benefit I'm interested in.

neteng101

One word for you - batteries. Hybrids are at most a bridge technology IMO - its still too expensive, and the batteries in them aren't environmentally friendly either. Recycling helps some but the cost of ownership makes them far less viable from an economic perspective... and its not like they're giving you free battery changes for life either. And batteries add weight to a car too.

Hybrids IMO are a fad and not nearly as green as they are made out to be. Its like the whole ethanol boondoggle... another silly stupid idea, let's increase our food costs, use up tons of water, to make ethanol. That's my problem with electric vehicles too - batteries, plus we still have to generate the power and unless we do stuff like nuclear (which is clean but a lot of greenies oppose) our power generation is still pretty antiquated.

I'd personally would rather see more effort put into clean diesel (something the US doesn't get that Europe does), natural gas (we have plenty of natural gas, we just need infrastructure investments) and hydrogen (this would be more experimental vs. the 1st two options).

Give me an i-DTEC Fit. Give me one that runs on natural gas.

And while we're concerned for the planet - instead of tax breaks for hybrids, we should be giving tax breaks for people to replace oil heating with natural gas - far cleaner and there's plenty of natural gas vs. oil.
I'm not sure if I agree. Battery technology is becoming cheaper and cheaper as we speak. Replacing the batteries of a Prius have already come to down to a price of about $2500 dollars...which to me to maintain a car, is nothing. The environmental issue has been already debunked because the recycling of these batteries is actively performed and their longevity according to actual ownership has long outperformed the expected life of the batteries....reducing replacement costs even further.

Cost keeps coming up but much more so when someone is buying a hybrid than someone buying an overpriced sports car...a psychological phenomenon more than anything else IMO.

I also do not think hybrids are a fad. The hybrid concept is two technologies augmenting each other. It is not limited to IC/battery combos.

vintagesierra

The batteries are what make hybrids so expensive, I myself would never buy a car where I knew the battery would be an issue a couple years down the line. After financing I'm going to be paying a little over $21,000 for my Fit, I can't imagine what a hybrid would be. Now that gas prices are dropping, no one's going to care about hybrids as much because all they care about is the cost that affects them. Besides, me getting 45mpg, I see no reason why I would spend the extra money and worry about maintenance for a car that maybe gets 5-10 more mpg.
I'm not quite understanding why the battery issue is so important in a hybrid when no one gives a thought about the engine, transmission, and other major components that constantly fail in a regular car. I'd say you'd probably pay about $2-3K more for a hybrid Fit. Given the upcoming Insight's price, I see no reason why not...and a stop/stop system would probably cost you much much less.

The worst thing that could happen is price of fuel dropping....because people are going to go back to their old ways and I think that'll spell disaster for our environment and economy in the mid-long run.

Plus, getting good mileage is great...the emissions of a Fit cannot match the low emissions of a hybrid...even with it's newer engine.

ctsport

Why make a hybrid model for the Fit when Honda already has plans to bring a dedicated hybrid model (the new Insight) to North America? Its targeted at the low end of the hybrid market, making it the most affordable hybrid available. Honda also has plans to bring in another hybrid model- the CRZ. Also, Honda already has hybrid models on the Civic and Accord. The Fit is Honda's entry vehicle, its target market is extremely price sensitive. The added costs to incorporate a hybrid drivetrain would essentially make the Fit a Civic competitor.

I do think the Fit will eventually get a hybrid version but just not in this generation. As gas prices continue to rise and as hybrid technology prices continues to fall, gasoline-hybrids will become more mainstream. Thats when we'll see a Fit hybrid.
Again..variety? Perhaps they don't bring the Fit hybrid because they plan to discontinue it given the new models coming out. I don't know. But if it does come out in Japan, I say if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for us.

I still say that Honda could have put at least a simple start/stop system in the Fit. Anyone who's seen this work smoothly really gets to appreciate how beneficial it can be..people getting 45 MPG now with their Fit will get well over 50.

I agree with you though about when we will see it. If the discussion here is any gage at all as far as acceptance goes, I don't see people changing their ways for a while. Our kids will inherent a whole bunch of crap from us that's for sure.
 
  #11  
Old 10-20-2008, 12:33 PM
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By the way...TOP 10 HYBRID MYTHS...interesting.

Five years ago, most motorists viewed hybrid cars somewhere between unknown commodity and contraption. Today vehicles powered by a combination of gasoline and electricity are all the rage. Like any new technology, until you get your hands on it—in this case, on the steering wheel—it's hard to wrap your mind around it.
Having a tough time separating hybrid truth from reality? You're not alone. The warp-speed adoption of hybrids into popular culture—and into hundreds of thousands of American driveways—has produced more than a little confusion and misinformation. Most industry analysts predict the continued growth of gas-electric vehicles, with estimates ranging from 600,000 to 800,000 hybrid sales in the United States by 2010, so this is a good time to debunk the 10 most prevalent myths about hybrid cars.


1. You need to plug in a hybrid car.

As soon as the word "electricity" is spoken, you think of plugs, cords, and wall sockets. But today's hybrid cars don't need to be plugged in. Auto engineers have developed an ingenious system known as regenerative braking. (Actually, they borrowed the concept from locomotive technology.) Energy usually lost when a vehicle is slowing down or stopping is reclaimed and routed to the hybrid's rechargeable batteries. The gas engine is also used to transfer energy to the batteries. The process is automatic, so no special requirements are placed on the driver.
Ironically, while car companies used to spend time and money explaining that hybrids need not be plugged in, a growing number of the major automakers (as well as activists and politicians) are pushing for plug-in hybrids. The ability to plug a hybrid into the electric grid overnight to charge a larger set of batteries would mean that most city driving could be done without burning a single drop of gasoline.

2. Hybrid batteries need to be replaced.

Worries about an expensive replacement of a hybrid car's batteries continue to nag many potential buyers. Those worries are unfounded. By keeping the charge between 40 percent and 60 percent—never fully charged, yet never fully drained—carmakers have greatly extended the longevity of nickel metal hydride batteries.
The standard warranty on hybrid batteries and other components is between 80,000 and 100,000 miles, depending on the manufacturer and your location. But that doesn't mean the batteries will die at 100,000 miles. The U.S. Department of Energy stopped its tests of hybrid battery packs—when the capacity remained almost like new—after 160,000 miles. A taxi driver in Vancouver drove his Toyota Prius more than 200,000 miles in 25 months, and after that time and mileage the batteries remained strong.

3. Hybrids are a new phenomenon.

In 1900, American car companies produced steam, electric, and gasoline cars in almost equal numbers. It wasn't long before enterprising engineers figured out that multiple sources of power could be combined. A young Ferdinand Porsche produced the first known hybrid gas-electric prototypes…in 1900. In 1905 American engineer H. Piper filed the first patent for a gas-electric hybrid vehicle.

4. People buy hybrids only to save money on gas.

Hybrid cars top the list of the most fuel-efficient vehicles on the road. Going farther on a gallon of gas—and thus reducing a car owner's tab at the pump—is a logical advantage of a hybrid car. But car shoppers seldom buy based purely on a logical economic equation. Besides, as critics of hybrid technology frequently point out, those savings seldom add up to the extra cost of buying a hybrid over a comparable conventional vehicle.
So, if it's not to save money, why are more and more shoppers going hybrid? Many reasons: To minimize their impact on the environment, to help reduce the world's addiction to oil, and to earn technology bragging rights. Who was the first on your block to have a color TV? Who will be the first to drive a hybrid?

5. Hybrids are expensive.

Hybrids are currently available in 15 different models ranging in price from $22,000 to $103,000. The most efficient models—the Honda Civic and Toyota Prius—are available well below $30,000. By the end of the decade, more than 50 models are expected. By that point, hybrids will represent the full range of sizes, shapes, and costs.
Rechargeable batteries, electric motors, and sophisticated computer controls do add to the cost of producing a hybrid car. However, as production numbers increase, economies of scale are expected to reduce those costs. Toyota plans to offer hybrid versions of all its most popular models and thus cut in half the incremental cost of hybrids.


6. Hybrids are small and underpowered.

The Lexus Rx400h and Toyota Highlander Hybrid share the same 270 horsepower system. The Lexus GS 450h hybrid sedan exceeds 300 horsepower and will go from 0 to 60 mph in less than six seconds. And the Toyota Volta concept is a 408-horsepower scream machine.
These vehicles prove that adding an electric motor and batteries to the drivetrain does not intrinsically mean diminished performance. Combining a gasoline engine and electric motors gives engineers more control to emphasize fuel parsimony or speed, urban driving or highway cruising, large vehicles or small.

7. Only liberals buy hybrids.

The long list of celebrity hybrid drivers includes Leonardo DiCaprio, Cameron Diaz, and Larry David. They zip around Hollywood in their Priuses and appear on talk shows extolling the virtues of hybrid vehicles. These celebrities, and other early adopters of hybrid technology, were primarily motivated by the environmental benefits. As a result, they created an easy target for naysayers to brand all hybrid drivers as tree-huggers.
In the ensuing years, Americans of all political stripes have become more aware of the economic and political costs of oil dependency. Conservative pundits claim that our petrodollars end up in the hands of repressive Middle East regimes and their patrons. As a result, we fund both sides of the war on terror. In addition, autoworkers have grown more interested in fuel-saving technologies, recognizing that they bear the brunt of Detroit's reluctance to abandon once-profitable SUVs.

8. Hybrids pose a threat to first responders.

Now that hundreds more hybrid cars take to our roads each day, some critics have wondered if public safety agencies should be concerned about all those high-voltage battery packs zipping along at freeway speeds. Yes and no.
A first responder is often in a mad race to save the lives of accident victims. In that rush, the responder has to make dozens of rapid technical decisions about how to safely remove the passengers from the vehicle. Adding the complication of unfamiliar hybrid technology can slow things down. So, it's the worry about potential dangers—primarily when and where to cut power—rather than the system itself that can cause a problem.
Turns out that a good amount of training—and, in case of fire, lots of water—should be most of what a first responder needs upon arriving at an accident involving a hybrid. Firefighters have coped with advancing automotive technologies for years, and they will skillfully deal with hybrid cars.
See our list of other unfounded health risks posed by hybrids.

9. Hybrids will solve all our transportation, energy, and environmental problems.

The hybrid car market is ramping up. In the past seven years hybrid sales in the US grew exponentially, from 9,500 in 2000 to 350,000 in 2007.
The numbers are encouraging but must be viewed in the context of the overall car market. The 350,000 hybrid car sales in 2007 represent only 2.5 percent of the 17 million new cars sold last year. If every new hybrid driver doubled fuel economy from 20 mpg to 40 mpg for 40 miles of daily driving—an optimistic estimate—then a gallon per hybrid car would be saved every day. That's a whopping 350,000 gallons per day saved by hybrid car drivers. But we've only reduced our daily US consumption from 400 million gallons to 399,650,000 gallons. Hybrid cars can only be viewed as a partial solution.

10. Hybrid technology is only a fad.

Hybrid technology is often pitted against fuel cells, diesel engines, and/or hydrogen as the silver bullet approach to sustainable mobility. The greatest hope and investment has been placed in hydrogen fuel cells, which appear to be many decades away from commercialization. The failure of hydrogen-powered cars to materialize rapidly underscores the risk of focusing on a single solution.
The debate over the future of automotive technology has now turned toward finding the best ways to combine systems and fuels in a single hybrid vehicle. The experience of mass-producing hybrid gas-electric vehicles has given engineers the insight needed to develop complex systems needed to combine multiple sources of power.
In an Associated Press interview, Jim Press, former president of Toyota Motor Sales USA— and current vice chairman at Chrysler—summed it up this way: "I think everything will be a hybrid, eventually. It will either be a gas hybrid, a diesel hybrid, or a fuel-cell hybrid."
 
  #12  
Old 10-20-2008, 01:12 PM
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...the emissions of a Fit cannot match the low emissions of a hybrid...even with it's newer engine.
That's not necessarily true. There are some large hybrids out there. For example: The Lexus Rx400h and Toyota Highlander Hybrid that you just posted about.

Those large vehicles impact the environment more that a Fit even if they are hybrids.

Hybrids cost more at purchase and it takes a long time to recuperate that initial investment, if ever. There is no denying that hybrids cost more to maintain. They just have more complex machinery. The added weight is also an issue.

These things will need to be dealt with before they sell in large volume.
 
  #13  
Old 10-20-2008, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Virtual
That's not necessarily true. There are some large hybrids out there. For example: The Lexus Rx400h and Toyota Highlander Hybrid that you just posted about.

Those large vehicles impact the environment more that a Fit even if they are hybrids.

Hybrids cost more at purchase and it takes a long time to recuperate that initial investment, if ever. There is no denying that hybrids cost more to maintain. They just have more complex machinery. The added weight is also an issue.

These things will need to be dealt with before they sell in large volume.
I agree with your statement but the cars you mentioned are probably the only two hybrids (short of the ludicrous attempts from the US manufacturers to make their tanks into hybrids) that are very much focused on performance and not efficiency. To me, Toyota has done a disservice to hybrid owners by marketing these cars as efficient hybrids.

I think the cost of hybrids is mostly due to low volume...not complexity of design or maintenance. The Prius is one of the most reliable, and least costly cars to maintain. Battery costs are not out of line to regular maintenance for other cars.

Here's a real-life example of a Prius owner's life with the car and the projected costs/con/pros.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...s/ourprius.htm

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...s-battery.html
 

Last edited by Climatologist; 10-20-2008 at 01:26 PM.
  #14  
Old 10-20-2008, 01:42 PM
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I try to keep cars for as long as I can and keep them properly maintained (see my sig.)

I think that's better for the environment than any current hybrid. It's also easy on the pocketbook.
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:51 PM
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Wow, someone definitely came in here packing an agenda
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:53 PM
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No agenda...just conversation. Not everything has to be an agenda.
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Virtual
I try to keep cars for as long as I can and keep them properly maintained (see my sig.)

I think that's better for the environment than any current hybrid. It's also easy on the pocketbook.
It depends...but I'm not sure I follow. Maintaining any car is a great thing to do and I commend you for that. No doubt it's easier on the pocketbook than buying any new car. You can't compare the efficiency of a 1990's vehicle to one today.

Of course, it's pointless to buy a new car if the old car isn't removed from the system per say. We're only adding to the overall levels of emissions.
 
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:04 PM
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I don't see things the same as you. I could counter argue points with you until I'm blue in the face. I'll stop here.

I too see an agenda.
 
  #19  
Old 10-20-2008, 02:07 PM
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I don't mind debating...I'd like to hear your points.

By they way, what agenda is that?
 

Last edited by Climatologist; 10-20-2008 at 02:11 PM.
  #20  
Old 10-20-2008, 02:46 PM
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did you have to pay the airline extra for all that agenda you packed??
 


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