here you go:
Synthetic oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

no one posted a study, except a 14year old CR report which found no difference, but had a caveat saying more testing needed.
So if such a test is the only thing you are looking for, there is no further study publicly available, otherwise wikipedia nerds would have posted it immediately.

But just because there hasn't been a public study, also doesn't mean the advantages are not true to some degree.

If you look at the dirty air filter causes 10% fuel savings drop myth, it took like 10-20years before the national labs finally completed a new study in 2009 and took down/modified the recommendation from the fueleconomy.gov website. People kept sticking to their guns and referring to the study which was done in 1970s on carbureted engines and held it as truth for years even when others reported it not happening..

So getting a new study that can pass your scrutiny of statistics and bias takes time and effort, which is more resources than what it is worth.

Please pony up a couple hundred thousand to fund the study then you will have the data you seek.

 

Thanks. Sorry, no spare hundreds of thousands here. That's why I asked UPS- they have money and they're really into figuring out ways to save every last cent. I know that their trucks aren't the same as our cars but it's something. Of course all I got was 'we don't use syn oil' and not 'here's why...'

I believed the idea that low tire pressure really wasted gas. Car & Driver ran a test with quite low tire pressure (like around 20 instead of 30 psi) and found that while it did make a difference the difference wasn't huge. Surprised me as well as a lot of other people.

The Consumer Reports study on oils may not be comprehensive enough for some people but it's all we've got. I think that mostly they looked at wear, I don't think that they also looked at mileage.

 

Some things cannot and should not be dumbed down for consumption by the lowest common denominator. Oil is one of them.

Fluid dynamics is not something you can just put in layman's terms and illustrate the mechanics of it in an accurate fashion.

You want an example of how a simple change in oil can create a significant difference in fuel economy and power (which are both related by the way, one often follows the other)

The following was originally intended for one of my boosted gas 2.0L's

There is something called Bearing Operating Condition(BOC) which can be one of 3 states, but you really only want it operating in the 3rd state, fully developed hydrodynamic lubrication. Which correlates to a BOC of 35+. The formula to find BOC is as follows:

BOC = Viscosity x RPM x Diameter x K / Unit Load



Viscosity is in units of absolute viscosity. "K" is a value to convert RPM and Diameter into surface speed. Unit Load is the applied force divided by the projected area of the bearing (the insert width times the journal diameter).

First, viscosity. I can't find absolute/dynamic viscosity numbers for various grades of motor oil, so I took the Kinematic Viscosity of 10w30 (dino) motor oil at 100*C and multiplied it by it's specific gravity. This should give me the Dynamic Viscosity.

Second is the value "K". To find surface speed you multiply circumference by RPM. So Diameter x Pi x RPM = Surface speed, therefore K = Pi Right?

Lastly, unit load. I used 12,000 lbs of force, but this is relative to motoGP/Formula1 type engines, not boosted 4cylinders. I know our engine's see a BMEP nearly twice that of a formula 1 car, so it is a conservative place to start.

I also had no bearings out of the motor to measure their width, so I just put a caliper on the main cap and eyeballed it. I came up with an area of 1.425, so a load value of 8421.

Put it all together, 8.4 x 9500 x 2.245 x 3.1415 / 8421 = 66

The optimal range between 35 and 50 so we are well out of that range.

From here we can use the Stribeck Curve to find our friction coefficient, which I found to be .0057

So with an applied load of 12,000lbs, that gives us a friction load of 68.4 lbs. The diameter of the journal used is 2.245, so 1.1225 x 68.4 = 76.7 in/lbs or 6.39 lb/ft.

At 9500 this equates to 11.56 hp per main bearing.


That is 8600 watts of energy wasted per bearing, and that is only for the 5 main bearings!

That is not accounting for all the rockers, cam journals, cylinder bore contact patches, rod journals or wrist pins. Or the oil pump its self.

So maybe you should bone up on the basics, BC.

What units are used for measuring viscosity?

How does temperature affect viscosity?

What are the real differences between weights of comparable group oils at a given temperature?

These all are key to understanding what the hell I am trying to tell you.

None of this is made up or conventional knowledge. When I tell you something, think about it don't just throw it back in my face or I won't bother explaining it further.

There is method to my madness and I wouldn't be sharing if it didn't have merit for Joe Commuter perusing this board.

If you actually give a damn about learning the science involved for oil go here and read everything two or three times and absorb it:
http://www.stle.org/resources/lubele...n/default.aspx

 

You're saying that at 9500 rpm in the particular engine you're using as an example there are frictional losses of almost 60 hp? This is a question, not throwing something back in your face.

When I was in HS an automotive engineer told me that at higher speeds it takes about a hp per mph just to overcome air resistance. Now that was before cars were more fluid so it's probably maybe 2/3 of that now. But still, that's where a lot of the engine's power goes at higher speeds- overcoming wind resistance.

 

Yes at WOT (full load) not accounting for all the other parasitic losses I am losing as much as 60HP at the crank on 10w30.

At cruise where load is much lower, at least on a modern car, I don't think it would even take 1 hp/mph. That will be dependent on gearing, rolling friction, drivetrain losses, and aero drag.

My cruising IDC's in my 2500lb, 0.29C/d Laser @ 75mph are usually less than 5% in 5th gear (very tall ratio), which would be about 290cc/min.

1450cc/min per injector times 4 injectors @ 5% IDCs = 290cc/min fuel delivered.

At stoich (which is what we see at cruise ~14.2-14.7:1AFRs depending on fuel) this is good for 5lbs/min worth of air flow, or about 50whp

So that may be about accurate. Seems a little high to me, but I can do some more math on that later.

 

I had a diesel VW Rabbit that produced (net) 48 hp.

Now of course that 48 is after internal friction losses.

Top speed was over 70 mph and the car weighed, if I remember right, just about 2000 lbs.

That's without people in it. I once had 7 and wow was it sluggish! Where I live there are some steep hills and even with just me in it (<150 lbs at the time) I couldn't get it over about 20 mph.

 

New conventional oil is semi synthetic any ways, I just check my oil at 7000 miles it is brown but is still good. I will change it either this week or next. The oil we use in a class 8 truck semi synthetic and they change it every 30000 miles (44 quarts) but keep in mind 5500 gallons of diesel was burned.


Keep in mind that GF4 rating on the oil has enough neutralizers TBN of 8 which is good for on average 8000 miles. You should check the oil every tank full of gas anyways. If the level doesn't move then there is no break down. There is bad oil but if I go to Honda and tell them to change the oil, it better make it to 15 percent.

 

Was this a dealer service oil change? If so, they agreed to the 0W20? My dealer said they would not use it on my Fit.

 

Really? They (my dealer) know I use it in my 2008 and even when it was under warranty they didn't care.

Weird.

 

I had the same problem too. Ive been looking at different sites about 0w20 and extended oil drains and it seems that 0w20 is semi synthetic. Here I will just show you what Ive been reading.


Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 - Bob Is The Oil Guy


Truth about 5w-20 and 0W-20 Motor Oil - technical facts

http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/p...303O00195A.pdf
This one I like because it doesn't say 0w20 is synthetic but can use synthetic if it meets API certification standards.

 

The service guy said they wouldn't vary from the 5W20 on my 2010 even though 0W20 is rated for the 2011. My guess is they'll wait till Honda issues something to the dealers on the backwards compatibility mentioned somewhere in here. Going synthetic wasn't an issue, however.

 

yes, dealer service. 3 dealer service I know of and talked to has no problem with it and just to add... my aftermarket bolt-ons does not void warranty as per a Honda head tech friend told me. that's where I bring my Fit for service.

 

Here is a comparison of GF4, GF5 oils http://cop.netfinity.net/nol/content...ILSAC-GF-5.pdf

 

The way I understand this is Honda is changing to 0w20 because of CAFE standards and the better lubrication that allows longer oil drain due to better protection of oil thickening. I just checked my oil and I have 7000 miles on it and its brown but still is thin and runny with good slippery feeling between the fingers. What worries me is the lower zinc in older vehicles. Our trucks at work uses the new diesel and new oil even in the older trucks and right now we have 4 trucks down due to blown turbos. There is no protection at hot starts and heat soaking.

 

I was just at my dealer for the LMS recall and saw a little chart xeroxed and tacked to the wall in the service area, listing oil weights for all makes/years. The brand new Fits listed OW-20, all other Fits listed 5W-20, BUT 0W-20 was shown as "acceptable".

 

I don't need a chart or graph or scientifically validated test to prove to me synthetic is "better" than Dino...it doesn't really matter.

I look at is as a "Wooden Fishing Boat" or "Aluminum Fishing Boat" type of scenario. Before synthetics became readily available for automobiles, or commonly available, almost everyone used Dino.

Like a Wooden boat, or an Aluminum boat, I think you can catch fish in it...So I think you can use Dino Oil, or Synthetic...and protect your engine and drive, with little concern.

I realize that with my conservative, daily driver type of driving I'm NOT probably immediately benefiting in any substantial way from my choice to use synthetic. It's just personal choice. If I keep my vehicle a long time (which with only occasional rare exception I tend to do) then perhaps, and only perhaps I may see some benefit in less wear, and/or sludge build up.

If I'm kidding myself? It doesn't really matter. Synthetics are becoming the Oil of choice from manufacturers more and more....

I'm guessing very soon, all automobiles will come with synthetics and have synthetics recommended as the fill oil. We are almost to that point now.

 

Synthetic oils are better than conventional, but I doubt anyone with a stock engine is ever going to see a big difference. As an engines design is pushed to the limit for more horsepower or extreme temperatures synthetics can really shine. The only 1 of those 3 scenarios that applies to a stock Fit is extreme cold.

If you run the engine with regular (per maintenance schedule) oil changes, I doubt anyone will drive their car until they have a lubrication related failure/wear in the engine. It seems that most of the people I meet that have put major mileage on their engines (300k-500k) just run dino oil with regular changes. Seen it on Cummins diesels, small block Chevy's, Ford Mod V8's, Duramaxes, Toyota 22RE's, old Benz's, etc.

I will avoid 0w20 oil in any vehicle I own as it is driven by regulators, not engineers. I have never heard an engineer recommend 0w20 for general use in an automobile engine, but have heard many recommend against it. The Fit's come with 0w20 as the factory fill for 2011 because it is mandated by the Japanese government.

 

FerrariChat.com - FAQ: Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)

 

No one know how good the new 0w20 GF5 oil will be when it comes out later this year. M1 0w20 is excellent oil and used it when it first came out but became hard to find and the new conventional oil comes out soon and talked to my refinery tech. friend on my route and he said that we will just have to wait and see what happens.

 

For those of us engineers who have participated in the development of engines I can assure you that engineers at Honda evaluated 0W-20 oils in the Fit and other engines. Synthetic oils are the choice not only for decreased friction - better mpg - but because of the shear strength. One of the biggest difficulties with conventional hydrocarbon oils is their less resistance to 'shredding' under load pressures, much as happens when you pull a sheet until it tears. In the lubricating process that tearing immediately lets metal to metal contact. And for those of us who have dismantled an engine after wear tests and weighed the moving parts I can assure you that synthetics are much better. In fact, 0W-20 synthetic oil works great while 0W-20 conventional oils are almost certain to fail at load. And 0W-20 is better than 5W-30 conventional oils.