Synthetic vs Conventional Oil - Any comments?
#42
09-22-2008, 01:25 PM
I like Wix filters also. ( to the other guy)... On oil, I like Motul, and Royal Purple. Thoughts anyone. (I bet there are a number of good ones).
Fit north country girl, It sounds like you have it down. Thats it, vary speed, let it coast down through the gears, then go up through the gears. Don't of course go nuts and get hit in the rear because of need to pamper car. Slowly increase loads on engine and drive train as engine breaks in. There is no definite miles (number) for all this, but when you first get the car, you will be able to feel and smell that it is tight and hot.
Fit north country girl, It sounds like you have it down. Thats it, vary speed, let it coast down through the gears, then go up through the gears. Don't of course go nuts and get hit in the rear because of need to pamper car. Slowly increase loads on engine and drive train as engine breaks in. There is no definite miles (number) for all this, but when you first get the car, you will be able to feel and smell that it is tight and hot.
The synthetic is really a no-brainer, even for someone as mechanically UNinclined as I am. Since I put high mileage on my cars (about 500 km = 310 miles per week), running synthetic is especially a wise idea in my case! My Sport will be an A/T so I'll just baby it (slow acceleration, no hard stops/starts, varying speed) for the first 1000 km or so.
Note, since I have to travel 400 km (ONE WAY) to get the Ventureshield done this Friday (get car on Wednesday but traveling down Thursday, return Friday), not using the cruise will be difficult and varying the speeds on the highway will also be something I'll need to keep on...
#43
09-22-2008, 01:47 PM
Thanks for the advice. I'll just figure that out in Km (I'm in Canada) and I'm set!
...wait to about 5000 km (exact conversion for 3000 miles = 4827 km) before switching to synthetic. Manual recommends a 1000 km break-in period (no hard starts/braking and I assume no cruise as varying speed would be recommended) so I'll stick to that....
...wait to about 5000 km (exact conversion for 3000 miles = 4827 km) before switching to synthetic. Manual recommends a 1000 km break-in period (no hard starts/braking and I assume no cruise as varying speed would be recommended) so I'll stick to that....
#44
09-22-2008, 01:55 PM
But, regarding the Break-in Period, the manual also states "Do not change the oil until the scheduled maintenance time." In other words, leave the factory fill in until the Maintenance Minder advises the oil change. (Plan on scheduling an oil change when the Minder reads 15% to 10%. This is when the indicator will first begin to blink). The factory fill is not typical oil but rather it has additional additives, as others have stated. That is why the manual specifically advises against draining that oil prematurely.
#45
09-22-2008, 02:17 PM
#46
09-22-2008, 02:52 PM
FWIW, I've kept my last 3 Hondas until circa 175K miles and never used a drop of synthetic in any of them. Engine life was never the reason for selling, and some of them I beat the snot out of them. 30 years ago, sure, there were problems with deposits, but with modern detergent oils, I have not encountered any gunk building up. I don't think there's any doubt that synthetic is a better oil--the question is whether it's worth it for your particular usage.
Unfortunately, short of having oil analysis done, there's almost no way to know this is happening until after the fact. I think the Toyota issue is more exception than rule, but sometimes even vehicles with mundane usage (Camrys) can benefit from synthetic oil.
#47
09-24-2008, 10:38 AM
I've heard both stories. Germany was producing "synthetic oil" because they couldn't get the real stuff. It came from Coal and natural gas and was used primarily as a fuel. What we use today was developed for protection of jet engines because conventional oil would burn and could not be used.
Turbo engines high heat require synthetics. Mechanics will tell you horror stories about coke buildup in a turbo that used conventional. A very costly mistake indeed.
Turbo engines high heat require synthetics. Mechanics will tell you horror stories about coke buildup in a turbo that used conventional. A very costly mistake indeed.
#49
09-24-2008, 11:39 AM
As a WW2 buff I can assure you that Germany invented synthetic oil. The Allies were bombing the petroleum producing countries Germany had conquered along with the ball bearing plants. In fact Germany moved entire ball bearing factories underground to keep production going and they used slave labor to build these huge underground factories. Quite an interesting fact of WW2.Why? Answer is simple since tanks, planees, trucks, cannons, virtually every large weapon of war required oil and ball bearings. As the oil dried up they focused on creating a replacement for petroleum. It was quite costly to manufacture but Germany had no choice.
The ability of synthetic oils to flow at temperatures low enough to freeze petroleum oils solid (due to the paraffin content of petroleum---no paraffin in synthetics) is another of the advantages of synthetic oils in cars.
BTW, as the pilot of a B-17, my dad helped with the destruction of the oil fields in Ploesti, Poland, and the ball bearing plants scattered around Germany. Unfortunately, he and his peers did such a great job of destroying the manufacturing plants, refineries, railroad lines and the entire German infrastructure, when his bomber was shot down over Germany, he became a POW in Stalag Luft 1 on the Baltic Sea coast. He and the other American fliers never saw a single one of the thousands of Red Cross care packages that were delivered to Germany simply because transportation across the country was virtually impossible. Food was among the items sent in the care packages, and it was eaten by starving Germans, instead of starving POW's.
Last edited by manxman; 09-24-2008 at 03:25 PM.
#50
09-24-2008, 01:17 PM
Another of the conditions that spurred Germany in WWII to produce an alternative to conventional lubricants was the failed siege of the Russian city of Stalingrad, unfortunately for the Germans, attempted in one of the coldest winters on record. Virtually all of the German war machinery, from tracked vehicles to machine guns would not operate because the conventional grease and oil in the machinery froze solid. Engines would not run, bearings would not turn, guns too big to be carried next to the body under clothing would jam.
The ability of synthetic oils to flow at temperatures low enough to freeze petroleum oils solid (due to the paraffin content of petroleum---no paraffin in synthetics) is another of the advantages of synthetic oils in cars.
BTW, as the pilot of a B-17, my dad helped with the destruction of the oil fields in Ploesti, Poland, and the ball bearing plants scattered around Germany. Unfortunately, he and his peers did such a great job of destroying the manufacturing plants, refineries, railroad lines and the entire German infrastructure, when his bomber was shot down over Germany, he became a POW in Stalag Luft 1 on the Baltic Sea coast. He and the other American fliers never saw a single Red Cross care package that were delivered to Germany simply because transportation across the country was virtually impossible.
The ability of synthetic oils to flow at temperatures low enough to freeze petroleum oils solid (due to the paraffin content of petroleum---no paraffin in synthetics) is another of the advantages of synthetic oils in cars.
BTW, as the pilot of a B-17, my dad helped with the destruction of the oil fields in Ploesti, Poland, and the ball bearing plants scattered around Germany. Unfortunately, he and his peers did such a great job of destroying the manufacturing plants, refineries, railroad lines and the entire German infrastructure, when his bomber was shot down over Germany, he became a POW in Stalag Luft 1 on the Baltic Sea coast. He and the other American fliers never saw a single Red Cross care package that were delivered to Germany simply because transportation across the country was virtually impossible.
#51
09-24-2008, 03:33 PM
Just try to piss on a tanks engine to warm that baby up!! You would need the entire US Army and Navy!! It's a pleasure to see that there are some intelligent people on the board other than people who flame you simply because you don't "follow all the lambs to slaughter"!!
#52
09-24-2008, 11:34 PM
Synthetic oil is the way to go
I have used synthetic oil in every car I ever owned. Most notably, I got 260,000 miles (including track time) out of my 1995 Civic before selling it, with no engine problems whatsoever. I use synthetic oil in our 3 cars, two of which have over 100,000 miles, and will switch our new '09 Fit to synthetic at the first oil change. If you use the factory oil filter, the engine will last a long time. The $7 for a quart of synthetic is definitely worth it.
Synthetic oil costs about twice as much as mineral oil, but it lubricates better. This is a proven fact. As to which brand of synthetic oil is better than another matter. I have used Mobil One ever since it came on the market and do not complain.
If you have a new car and start using synthetic oil, there will be no problems. If you switch to synthetic oil an old car that has, say, 100000 miles you will likely get oil leaks. This is because of the much higher fluidity of synthetic oil, which cleans the engine of all the crud that is literally holding the seals together. I did this once with our old G20 and, like clockwork, she sprang a leak at the crankshaft seal 2 days after the oil change.
Never use aftermarket filters. This is because some do not have a backstop valve, which means the oil will drain back to the sump when you turn the engine off. When starting again, it takes a few seconds to get oil back to the top of the engine. If you have variable valve timing, this will inevitably cause damage. For example, on the VE30DE Nissan engine that is in my 1992 Maxima SE, one can save a few bucks on cheaper filters from SpeeDee, but will pay $4000 every few years for an overhaul of the variable valve timing gear. J
Synthetic oil costs about twice as much as mineral oil, but it lubricates better. This is a proven fact. As to which brand of synthetic oil is better than another matter. I have used Mobil One ever since it came on the market and do not complain.
If you have a new car and start using synthetic oil, there will be no problems. If you switch to synthetic oil an old car that has, say, 100000 miles you will likely get oil leaks. This is because of the much higher fluidity of synthetic oil, which cleans the engine of all the crud that is literally holding the seals together. I did this once with our old G20 and, like clockwork, she sprang a leak at the crankshaft seal 2 days after the oil change.
Never use aftermarket filters. This is because some do not have a backstop valve, which means the oil will drain back to the sump when you turn the engine off. When starting again, it takes a few seconds to get oil back to the top of the engine. If you have variable valve timing, this will inevitably cause damage. For example, on the VE30DE Nissan engine that is in my 1992 Maxima SE, one can save a few bucks on cheaper filters from SpeeDee, but will pay $4000 every few years for an overhaul of the variable valve timing gear. J
#53
09-25-2008, 01:07 AM
I have used synthetic oil in every car I ever owned. Most notably, I got 260,000 miles (including track time) out of my 1995 Civic before selling it, with no engine problems whatsoever. I use synthetic oil in our 3 cars, two of which have over 100,000 miles, and will switch our new '09 Fit to synthetic at the first oil change. If you use the factory oil filter, the engine will last a long time. The $7 for a quart of synthetic is definitely worth it.
Synthetic oil costs about twice as much as mineral oil, but it lubricates better. This is a proven fact. As to which brand of synthetic oil is better than another matter. I have used Mobil One ever since it came on the market and do not complain.
If you have a new car and start using synthetic oil, there will be no problems. If you switch to synthetic oil an old car that has, say, 100000 miles you will likely get oil leaks. This is because of the much higher fluidity of synthetic oil, which cleans the engine of all the crud that is literally holding the seals together. I did this once with our old G20 and, like clockwork, she sprang a leak at the crankshaft seal 2 days after the oil change.
Never use aftermarket filters. This is because some do not have a backstop valve, which means the oil will drain back to the sump when you turn the engine off. When starting again, it takes a few seconds to get oil back to the top of the engine. If you have variable valve timing, this will inevitably cause damage. For example, on the VE30DE Nissan engine that is in my 1992 Maxima SE, one can save a few bucks on cheaper filters from SpeeDee, but will pay $4000 every few years for an overhaul of the variable valve timing gear. J
Synthetic oil costs about twice as much as mineral oil, but it lubricates better. This is a proven fact. As to which brand of synthetic oil is better than another matter. I have used Mobil One ever since it came on the market and do not complain.
If you have a new car and start using synthetic oil, there will be no problems. If you switch to synthetic oil an old car that has, say, 100000 miles you will likely get oil leaks. This is because of the much higher fluidity of synthetic oil, which cleans the engine of all the crud that is literally holding the seals together. I did this once with our old G20 and, like clockwork, she sprang a leak at the crankshaft seal 2 days after the oil change.
Never use aftermarket filters. This is because some do not have a backstop valve, which means the oil will drain back to the sump when you turn the engine off. When starting again, it takes a few seconds to get oil back to the top of the engine. If you have variable valve timing, this will inevitably cause damage. For example, on the VE30DE Nissan engine that is in my 1992 Maxima SE, one can save a few bucks on cheaper filters from SpeeDee, but will pay $4000 every few years for an overhaul of the variable valve timing gear. J
#54
09-25-2008, 04:01 AM
Synthetic oils are getting so good these days that you can even do oil changes once a year or every 25K miles which ever comes first!
Just check Amsoil! AMSOIL - 100% Synthetic 0W-20 Motor Oil (ASM)
Weak link these days is a lack of oil filters that are not based on paper cellulose media. Stick with ones that are made with synthetic fibers for durability and flow. Even K&N oil filters use cellulose based media! Crap!
Stay with Wix as suggested or Amsoil brand:
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters - Nanofiber Technology
And as stated by radim, I used synthetic oil in my CRX under severe racing conditions and extreme cornering, too (potential for oil scavenging). When I teared the engine apart few years back after more than 250K miles there were no visible wear. Machine shop stated that I could have only replaced piston rings!
Mobil 1 is good, but Red Line is even better! Amsoil is the best!
Royal Purple is good, but there were reported failures in boosted applications. I do not know how reliable that info was and if they adjusted the formulation.
Just check Amsoil! AMSOIL - 100% Synthetic 0W-20 Motor Oil (ASM)
Weak link these days is a lack of oil filters that are not based on paper cellulose media. Stick with ones that are made with synthetic fibers for durability and flow. Even K&N oil filters use cellulose based media! Crap!
Stay with Wix as suggested or Amsoil brand:
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters - Nanofiber Technology
And as stated by radim, I used synthetic oil in my CRX under severe racing conditions and extreme cornering, too (potential for oil scavenging). When I teared the engine apart few years back after more than 250K miles there were no visible wear. Machine shop stated that I could have only replaced piston rings!
Mobil 1 is good, but Red Line is even better! Amsoil is the best!
Royal Purple is good, but there were reported failures in boosted applications. I do not know how reliable that info was and if they adjusted the formulation.
#55
09-25-2008, 05:53 AM
Stock filters and synthetic oil
To my knowledge, stock oil filters will work the same with synthetic as with mineral oil. There is really nothing mysterious about synthetic oil. I would use a factory filter. If you do your own oil changes, I would mail order a few and keep them handy.
I would change synthetic oil as often as is recommended by the manual, just like with mineral oil. If it says to do it every 5000 miles, that's what I would do. Synthetic oil may last longer than mineral, but I would rather waste a few hundred bucks on premature oil changes over the lifetime of the car, then have to have an engine rebuild done ...
I would change synthetic oil as often as is recommended by the manual, just like with mineral oil. If it says to do it every 5000 miles, that's what I would do. Synthetic oil may last longer than mineral, but I would rather waste a few hundred bucks on premature oil changes over the lifetime of the car, then have to have an engine rebuild done ...
#56
09-25-2008, 09:27 AM
Have to chime in about some misleading info...
Most oil filters have anti-drainback valves in them, whether OEM or aftermarket. There's no reason to avoid aftermarket filters, especially if you stick with brands like Wix, NAPA, Purolator, Mobil 1, etc.
Paper filter elements are what is in most oil filters, including most OEM filters. While synthetic filter media may be better, paper has done fine in millions of oil filters through the years.
Fram gets a bad rap for their cardboard end caps. As said above, most filter elements are paper. There have been very few actual filter failures, certainly not enough to warrant the cellulose fear some have of Frams. In fact, some Nissan OEM filters are rebadged Frams. Don't get me wrong, there are better filters than Frams for the same money, but I have run Frams in my vehicles when a store was out of my preferred filter and haven't had a problem. You also can't lump all Frams into one bucket as they have higher-end filters with synthetic media, more robust construction, etc.
There is no best oil. Amsoil makes lots of claims and is good oil, but Mobil 1, Redline (no API certfication last I checked), Pennzoil Platinum, etc are all good oils and some may do better in some engines than others. Once you're into the full synthetic category, the difference is really splitting hairs and is more about brand loyalty/loyalists than real performance differences.
Most oil filters have anti-drainback valves in them, whether OEM or aftermarket. There's no reason to avoid aftermarket filters, especially if you stick with brands like Wix, NAPA, Purolator, Mobil 1, etc.
Paper filter elements are what is in most oil filters, including most OEM filters. While synthetic filter media may be better, paper has done fine in millions of oil filters through the years.
Fram gets a bad rap for their cardboard end caps. As said above, most filter elements are paper. There have been very few actual filter failures, certainly not enough to warrant the cellulose fear some have of Frams. In fact, some Nissan OEM filters are rebadged Frams. Don't get me wrong, there are better filters than Frams for the same money, but I have run Frams in my vehicles when a store was out of my preferred filter and haven't had a problem. You also can't lump all Frams into one bucket as they have higher-end filters with synthetic media, more robust construction, etc.
There is no best oil. Amsoil makes lots of claims and is good oil, but Mobil 1, Redline (no API certfication last I checked), Pennzoil Platinum, etc are all good oils and some may do better in some engines than others. Once you're into the full synthetic category, the difference is really splitting hairs and is more about brand loyalty/loyalists than real performance differences.
#57
09-25-2008, 09:27 AM
There Are Several Oil Filters That Meet Or Surpass The Honda OEM Filter
Oil filter comparisons
The above link is just one of several where filters are cut open and dissected. Fram filters for example use cardboard in their filter. Moisture (water) is in the oil of engines and when water hits cardboard it deteriorates. Thats why a quality filter never uses cardboard.Quality and type of filter media, amount of media used, oil pressure drop, quality of construction, bypass valve construction and operation etc. Believe it or not the oil filters sold by Wal Mart are of very high quality, far surpassing the cheap filters on the market such as Fram. Many people simply don't take the time to research products, they simply assume thety are quality. For example, I would never have thought that a Wal Mart filter was a quality filter until I did the research.
The above link is just one of several where filters are cut open and dissected. Fram filters for example use cardboard in their filter. Moisture (water) is in the oil of engines and when water hits cardboard it deteriorates. Thats why a quality filter never uses cardboard.Quality and type of filter media, amount of media used, oil pressure drop, quality of construction, bypass valve construction and operation etc. Believe it or not the oil filters sold by Wal Mart are of very high quality, far surpassing the cheap filters on the market such as Fram. Many people simply don't take the time to research products, they simply assume thety are quality. For example, I would never have thought that a Wal Mart filter was a quality filter until I did the research.
#58
03-29-2011, 03:48 PM
I have used synthetic for years. Growing up in Minnesota and putting oil in a car at -30f my older brother showed me the differences between synthetic and dino oil. We had a farm and that particular mornig we were adding oil to several machines. Dino oil was the constancy of jelly and synthetic oil could be poured as a liquid. Things may have changed but for the cost of cars vs. oil I choose to use synthetic (with the best filter possible). Yes I am unadulterated cheap about some things, (bought my 07 Fit at an Ins. auction for $5,200.00 with 77K on it) and I know most of the people on this forum paid a lot more for their cars. So there is a much higher risk vs. reward ratio regarding oil use. The last oil issue I had with a car was over thirty years ago with dino oil that I got behind changing. I had to do a valve job and did most of the work myself. I have gotten behind and even drove the heck out of a stick 3 series BMW with low oil. No oil related repairs. I view synthetic as very cheap insurance. Hope this was helpful.
#59
03-29-2011, 03:59 PM
One last thought. Let your car drain for an hour or more. Rapid oil change is not the goal in fact it makes no sense. Isn’t the point to get as much sludge as possible out of the engine? So not changing the filter or not letting the oil-bottom sludge drain out completely is good because? If I have the time I will let my car drip over an hour before putting the plug, new filter and fresh oil back in. This was very good advice from an excellent auto shop teacher in the early seventies.
#60
03-29-2011, 05:09 PM
Good advice Dryfly and welcome to the freakworld - thing is your answer is a few years too late. Check the posting date.
Good thing to see you searching through the forum threads. Just keep in mind some have been laying inactive for a time.
What I do to see the most active is click on the 'New Posts' up in the page banner, that shows the days activity in all forums and sub forums.
Then I cruise the select forums to see what's going on or what's been said concerning my interests.
Pretty soon I post a few times and subscribe and my mail box tells me.
I'm gonna +rep you for it being Tuesday
Good thing to see you searching through the forum threads. Just keep in mind some have been laying inactive for a time.
What I do to see the most active is click on the 'New Posts' up in the page banner, that shows the days activity in all forums and sub forums.
Then I cruise the select forums to see what's going on or what's been said concerning my interests.
Pretty soon I post a few times and subscribe and my mail box tells me.
I'm gonna +rep you for it being Tuesday