Has coil replacement fixed anyone's misfire/stutter?
#121
03-10-2013, 10:17 PM
Figured I'd throw my experience in here since these threads on here helped me diagnose my problem. I had bought an 07 sport recently with about 86k miles. Car drove fine at the dealer, was flawless on the hour ride back home, but soon after that started to misfire bad at idle - noticeable stuttering. Not long after it was throwing codes, turned out to be misfiring in all four cylinders. I changed the spark plugs and coil packs at the same time so I'm not sure which exactly was the issue, but after the change the codes have been gone and the car had been running great for a last couple months. I ended up buying beck arnley ignition coils off ebay, about 227 for the set of 4, and denso IK20's for my plugs, about 37 for those off ebay as well.
#122
03-11-2013, 02:17 AM
A knock sensor retards the timing only after knock was detected and will retard the timing to all cylinders to prevent knock. There is oil jets that spray the pistons to cool it off and it sprays in the middle of the piston above the spark plug but there is a oil ring that forms over time which can cause a hot spot that cause pre ignition. Coils fail due to contamination and usually caused from knock that pressure escapes from the plug causing the coil to overheat and misfire. There is a lot of the variables that all play into knock and not just fuel. Cycle to cycle variables, oil blow by, to name a few.
Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition by Allen W. Cline Thanks to Krimson_Cardnal for sharing this.
Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition by Allen W. Cline Thanks to Krimson_Cardnal for sharing this.
And so what is there is momentary preignition (that would be cured by the knock sensor almost instantaneously)that has no effect on the EXTERNAL coil packs it may effect the plug tip but never the coilpacks.
#123
03-11-2013, 02:35 PM
stuttering, misfire at idle, stalling and idle, etc. All of the exact same symptoms, except no codes showing. My 07 sport AT with 65K was still under warranty so i brought it to Dealer service department. They thought it was the EGR valve, replaced it. fixed nothing. They finally got a misfire in cylinder 2 and and replaced the engine coil. Problem solved runs great now.
#124
03-12-2013, 02:42 AM
Let's talk coilpacks for a moment. All they are is two cores wrapped with different amounts of wire turns packed in a case.
There is no connection between the cores or wire wrappings on either side. The only thing that can go wrong with either of the coil windings is a short. Or an infinitesimally small chance of one of the wires breaking but they are coated with plastic and the chances are very slim of it happening.
If they suffered a short or wire breakage they wouldn't put out ANY POWER so you would have a misfiring cylinder ALL THE TIME not like the symptoms owners are reporting.
The coils are just two hunks of iron wrapped with probably copper wire that is it they are just a simple step-up transformer they don't do any controlling of anything and are not magically effected by detonation or anything else unless your engine bay is on FIRE.
So you say if they are so simple why are threads like this all over boards?
All they do is accept 12-14 volts in on one side and that causes a magnetic field to be created around the iron core in the primary coil (there are two cores remember the primary with small voltage and the secondary the handles high voltage that comes out to the sparkplug).
All the time that plug is not firing that 12-14 volts continues to build the magnetic field around the primary core. That is what is known as "Dwell time" while it is building that charge. You would set the dwell time by opening or closing the clearance in the points and there are even meters mechanics USED to use to check the dwell.
Now the "magic" happens. In the old days the "points" controlled by distributor would momentarily shut off the 12-14 volts going to the primary core and the would cause the magnetic field to "collapse".
But now that we have no points or distributor how does that 12-14 volts get cut off? Easy peasy the ECM (or ECU for you old timers) now controls that incoming 12-14 volts. The ECM is programmed to shut it off when the "crank position sensor" indicates that cylinder is ready to fire and needs the spakplug lit.
So why is that 12-14 volts cut off anyway. That is the magic remember the two cores primary and secondary are NOT PHYSICALLY CONNECTED IN ANY WAY so what the heck is that 12-14 volts doing that is so important?
When that 12-14 volts is cut off and the magnetic field collapses the collapsing current is "INDUCED" (means it flies through space INTO the secondary core) magic indeed.
When this incoming current (electrons moving in the same direction) strikes the secondary core and wire windings and the incoming voltage is INCREASED in a ratio of how many wire windings to primary core has and how many the secondary core has.
Since they are step-up transformers the secondary core has a LOT more wire wraps than the primary and the result is that 12-14 volts is turned into the 50,000 volts needed to fire the plugs.
The transformer on your street for your house current is the opposite a step DOWN transformer it REDUCES the 10,000-50,000 volts running through the power wires DOWN to the 110 volts need in your house.
OK where were we ok the current is induced into the secondary coil and is way higher and it's looking for ground (as all current is) and it goes out the coilpack into the sparkplug and THAT FOLKS is WHY and WHERE the coilpacks on the FIT are having problems.
If there is a design defect in the Fit coilpacks that is causing all the problems is HAS to be the circuit that leads from the secondary core out to the plug.
Remember the coils are just hunks of iron wrapped in wire with little to go wrong. BUT the curcuit coming out of the secondary core leading to the plugs is a messed up conglomeration of tiny parts just looking to fail.
Start at the top (if you have a coilpack handy you can follow along). Peel off the "extension" that leads from the coilpack down the the plug top and look inside.
There is a tiny "Fuse" type thing (I'm not sure what it is but the only thing that makes sense is a fuse or radio noise suppression part).
It slides into a metal "holder" on the top end and the Fit is very loose no precision at all and this thing corrodes even inside the "extension" (yes I took one apart and checked these things myself).
Next comes a small metal spring that is again very loosely installed and has very little "tension" in the spring you can squash it with two fingers with no effort.
Again this spring gets corroded even inside the "extension". Then we come the the final part another small spring with very little tension that conducts the charge onto the top of the plug and it too has corrosion on the outside.
What all that adds up to is a very poor design, with tiny parts conducting 50,000 volts, to the plugs with a bunch of loosely fitted, parts with little spring tension, holding them in connection with a lot of sections, that can and do FAIL causing our problems.
If and when any of my coilpacks fail I'm going to find an old solid core sparkplug wire and trim the top section so it will Fit into the coil with the extension removed and the connector CLEANED OF CORROSION and putting a little silicone sealer to hold it in place making good connection inside the coil body
I will then cable tie the coil body in place hanging from my strutbar and run that old time sparkplug wire down to the plug And I will bet a bunch of money that "bad" coil still works fine.
Unless somebody has a BAD one hanging around and wants to try it first?
There is no connection between the cores or wire wrappings on either side. The only thing that can go wrong with either of the coil windings is a short. Or an infinitesimally small chance of one of the wires breaking but they are coated with plastic and the chances are very slim of it happening.
If they suffered a short or wire breakage they wouldn't put out ANY POWER so you would have a misfiring cylinder ALL THE TIME not like the symptoms owners are reporting.
The coils are just two hunks of iron wrapped with probably copper wire that is it they are just a simple step-up transformer they don't do any controlling of anything and are not magically effected by detonation or anything else unless your engine bay is on FIRE.
So you say if they are so simple why are threads like this all over boards?
All they do is accept 12-14 volts in on one side and that causes a magnetic field to be created around the iron core in the primary coil (there are two cores remember the primary with small voltage and the secondary the handles high voltage that comes out to the sparkplug).
All the time that plug is not firing that 12-14 volts continues to build the magnetic field around the primary core. That is what is known as "Dwell time" while it is building that charge. You would set the dwell time by opening or closing the clearance in the points and there are even meters mechanics USED to use to check the dwell.
Now the "magic" happens. In the old days the "points" controlled by distributor would momentarily shut off the 12-14 volts going to the primary core and the would cause the magnetic field to "collapse".
But now that we have no points or distributor how does that 12-14 volts get cut off? Easy peasy the ECM (or ECU for you old timers) now controls that incoming 12-14 volts. The ECM is programmed to shut it off when the "crank position sensor" indicates that cylinder is ready to fire and needs the spakplug lit.
So why is that 12-14 volts cut off anyway. That is the magic remember the two cores primary and secondary are NOT PHYSICALLY CONNECTED IN ANY WAY so what the heck is that 12-14 volts doing that is so important?
When that 12-14 volts is cut off and the magnetic field collapses the collapsing current is "INDUCED" (means it flies through space INTO the secondary core) magic indeed.
When this incoming current (electrons moving in the same direction) strikes the secondary core and wire windings and the incoming voltage is INCREASED in a ratio of how many wire windings to primary core has and how many the secondary core has.
Since they are step-up transformers the secondary core has a LOT more wire wraps than the primary and the result is that 12-14 volts is turned into the 50,000 volts needed to fire the plugs.
The transformer on your street for your house current is the opposite a step DOWN transformer it REDUCES the 10,000-50,000 volts running through the power wires DOWN to the 110 volts need in your house.
OK where were we ok the current is induced into the secondary coil and is way higher and it's looking for ground (as all current is) and it goes out the coilpack into the sparkplug and THAT FOLKS is WHY and WHERE the coilpacks on the FIT are having problems.
If there is a design defect in the Fit coilpacks that is causing all the problems is HAS to be the circuit that leads from the secondary core out to the plug.
Remember the coils are just hunks of iron wrapped in wire with little to go wrong. BUT the curcuit coming out of the secondary core leading to the plugs is a messed up conglomeration of tiny parts just looking to fail.
Start at the top (if you have a coilpack handy you can follow along). Peel off the "extension" that leads from the coilpack down the the plug top and look inside.
There is a tiny "Fuse" type thing (I'm not sure what it is but the only thing that makes sense is a fuse or radio noise suppression part).
It slides into a metal "holder" on the top end and the Fit is very loose no precision at all and this thing corrodes even inside the "extension" (yes I took one apart and checked these things myself).
Next comes a small metal spring that is again very loosely installed and has very little "tension" in the spring you can squash it with two fingers with no effort.
Again this spring gets corroded even inside the "extension". Then we come the the final part another small spring with very little tension that conducts the charge onto the top of the plug and it too has corrosion on the outside.
What all that adds up to is a very poor design, with tiny parts conducting 50,000 volts, to the plugs with a bunch of loosely fitted, parts with little spring tension, holding them in connection with a lot of sections, that can and do FAIL causing our problems.
If and when any of my coilpacks fail I'm going to find an old solid core sparkplug wire and trim the top section so it will Fit into the coil with the extension removed and the connector CLEANED OF CORROSION and putting a little silicone sealer to hold it in place making good connection inside the coil body
I will then cable tie the coil body in place hanging from my strutbar and run that old time sparkplug wire down to the plug And I will bet a bunch of money that "bad" coil still works fine.
Unless somebody has a BAD one hanging around and wants to try it first?
#126
03-12-2013, 06:56 PM
A knock sensor retards the timing only after knock was detected and will retard the timing to all cylinders to prevent knock. There is oil jets that spray the pistons to cool it off and it sprays in the middle of the piston above the spark plug but there is a oil ring that forms over time which can cause a hot spot that cause pre ignition. Coils fail due to contamination and usually caused from knock that pressure escapes from the plug causing the coil to overheat and misfire. There is a lot of the variables that all play into knock and not just fuel. Cycle to cycle variables, oil blow by, to name a few.
Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition by Allen W. Cline Thanks to Krimson_Cardnal for sharing this.
Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition by Allen W. Cline Thanks to Krimson_Cardnal for sharing this.
Let me wade into this fray about spark plug and ignition coil degradation that leads to stuttering etc as an old engineer familiar with the design, fabrication, and testing of these devices.
Both spark plugs and coil packs 'wear out' over time because they are involved with eledctrical discharges thru them just like light bulbs. Spark knock does affect spark plugs by the shock administered to the plug; often there will be widening gaps in the plug as a result of the shock wave. If the 'knocking' continued for extended periods the end of the plug can be blown off. Its for that reason knock detectors were 'invented'. By detecting the knock and cutting back on spark advance the tendency to knock is greatly reduced but until it is, the plug will be damaged though not very much. If it happens many times the damage will get real.
Just like light bulbs and computer hardware, enough discharges will 'do them in' and they fail. Any TV tech can point that out so don't look for causes by drivers or manufacturers to be the result of stuttering; most likely either the plugs, or the coil packs, or both are wearing out is the reason the ignition process is unstable.
50,000 miles is the typical limit for those items wearing out. Sure the upper statistical spread says maybe 3% will last a 100,000 miles but it also says the lower 3% will fail at 40,000 miles.
No automotive device can last forever, most are in danger beginning at about 40,000 but may go to 500,000 miles or more. Electrical devices just aren't one of those 100,000 +_ mileage devices. The repeated passage of electrical energy just finally wears out the internal connections and they fail to operate properly.
That help?
.
#127
03-13-2013, 04:26 AM
Here is what I was talking about from the sand racing in UAE thread. https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/off-...gging-uae.html
You can use ANY coilpack on the Fit and just run a plug wire from it like these guys are doing. If you look at the video almost all of them are using the coilpack with plug wires.
You can use ANY coilpack on the Fit and just run a plug wire from it like these guys are doing. If you look at the video almost all of them are using the coilpack with plug wires.
#128
03-19-2013, 03:22 PM
Thanks to the OP and all the help that all members have given on this site. Haven't visited it much since I first got the car in summer 2006. Currently I'm at 82.5k km (51k miles) on the odometer, probably 90% city stop and go driving, as Vancouver is pretty dense
About 2 months ago I started to get stuttering on idle/red lights (checked out to be misfire on coil 3), and it got progressively worse over time. Initially it wouldn't happen at higher revs, nor while driving (until recently). After reading the site, and a few cheap DIY solutions, I had help from a friend and swapped the coil pack on #3 and #1, applied dielectric grease on the plug and the coil boot and put a quarter bottle of fuel injection cleaner in the gas tank
This worked for about a week, and then it slowly got worse again. After bringing it back to my friend's place, it showed as coil #3 misfiring again. We then tried swapping the #3 spark plug with the one from #2, while reapplying dielectric grease and fuel injector cleaner
Again, this worked for about a week or two, and then it started deteriorating again, this time with slight stuttering while driving past 100 km/h (62 mph). Since my issue stuck with the #3 cylinder despite moving both the coil pack and the spark plug around, I wasn't sure getting one plug+coil would fix anything, so I ordered 4 Beck/Arnley coils and 4 Denso Iridium Long Life from Rock Auto shipped to 24/7 parcel in Blaine (with 5% coupon easily found online and shipping, cost $235 USD shipped, did not get taxed crossing the border despite declaring full value). Ordered on the 6th, arrived on the 14th
Picked up the coils and plugs over the weekend, and swapped all of them yesterday just to cover my bases. The coils had a blue boot with a IGC0053 sticker on the plug and made in Japan sticker on the box, the Denso Long Life Iridium plugs had made in Japan on the box (and looked like the ones from my car). Prior to this I have not changed the spark plugs before, only moved them around as part of diagnosis.
It's only been a day so I know it means nothing given simple dielectric grease and fuel injector cleaner helped for a week each time previously, but I notice my gears shifting smoother (primarily between first and second). Will follow up with questions if doing all of this does not alleviate my problems, or follow up with status if everything goes well.
Thanks again for all the help
About 2 months ago I started to get stuttering on idle/red lights (checked out to be misfire on coil 3), and it got progressively worse over time. Initially it wouldn't happen at higher revs, nor while driving (until recently). After reading the site, and a few cheap DIY solutions, I had help from a friend and swapped the coil pack on #3 and #1, applied dielectric grease on the plug and the coil boot and put a quarter bottle of fuel injection cleaner in the gas tank
This worked for about a week, and then it slowly got worse again. After bringing it back to my friend's place, it showed as coil #3 misfiring again. We then tried swapping the #3 spark plug with the one from #2, while reapplying dielectric grease and fuel injector cleaner
Again, this worked for about a week or two, and then it started deteriorating again, this time with slight stuttering while driving past 100 km/h (62 mph). Since my issue stuck with the #3 cylinder despite moving both the coil pack and the spark plug around, I wasn't sure getting one plug+coil would fix anything, so I ordered 4 Beck/Arnley coils and 4 Denso Iridium Long Life from Rock Auto shipped to 24/7 parcel in Blaine (with 5% coupon easily found online and shipping, cost $235 USD shipped, did not get taxed crossing the border despite declaring full value). Ordered on the 6th, arrived on the 14th
Picked up the coils and plugs over the weekend, and swapped all of them yesterday just to cover my bases. The coils had a blue boot with a IGC0053 sticker on the plug and made in Japan sticker on the box, the Denso Long Life Iridium plugs had made in Japan on the box (and looked like the ones from my car). Prior to this I have not changed the spark plugs before, only moved them around as part of diagnosis.
It's only been a day so I know it means nothing given simple dielectric grease and fuel injector cleaner helped for a week each time previously, but I notice my gears shifting smoother (primarily between first and second). Will follow up with questions if doing all of this does not alleviate my problems, or follow up with status if everything goes well.
Thanks again for all the help
#129
04-10-2013, 01:13 PM
Hi all,
I have almost same issue, I fell like a Engine "cut off" or big shakes when I'm driving with a constan speed or incline route. So, my question is "only one coil pack will cause this kind of issue"?
I'm confused becuase on "idle" the engine run fine, but when I'm driving the shakes are so hard, also if I tried to continue driving the engine stop and get check engine with P0336 code only.
Someone have any idea about it?
Regards
Mike
I have almost same issue, I fell like a Engine "cut off" or big shakes when I'm driving with a constan speed or incline route. So, my question is "only one coil pack will cause this kind of issue"?
I'm confused becuase on "idle" the engine run fine, but when I'm driving the shakes are so hard, also if I tried to continue driving the engine stop and get check engine with P0336 code only.
Someone have any idea about it?
Regards
Mike
#130
04-11-2013, 01:03 AM
That code is not from a coilpack it's for a crank sensor fault. Check your crank position sensor.
P0336 Crankshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Range/Performance
P0336 Crankshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Range/Performance
#131
04-18-2013, 08:52 PM
my fit had the same issues...2 coil packs were misfiring. Instead of replacing the 2 and causing more issues, I replaced all 4 coil packs...all fixed now, no more stutter. My 07 now has 325,000 miles on it.
Ed D
Ed D
#134
04-20-2013, 09:27 PM
May be the same issue ??
My 07 Fit only misfires on acceleration, never on idle and mainly when say between 2500-4000 revs in fourth / fifth gear, ie light acceleration. Every now and then on third gear heavy acceleration the engine light flashes and it stutters really badly. It seems to be worse on High octane fuel.
Any ideas people ?
Any ideas people ?
#137
04-25-2013, 12:21 PM
Fit fix
I've been experiencing engine misfire (O7 Fit Sport) under load mostly while accelerating in 4th gear (manual trans) at low 2000s rpm. Otherwise car ran fine. Engine has 98,800 miles on it. Engine light flashed and stayed on while my wife was driving. Code indicated misfire cyl 4 (P0304) and also crankshaft sensor issue (P0339). I took the car into dealer - they suggested new plugs (I had just done this two weeks ago), a valve job, and fuel injector cleaning - all for just $450 (for just valves & cleaning). They had to order a gasket (really? Honda dealer?), which was a blessing in disguise. It gave me some time...
Well, being a DIY guy, I googled and thankfully found this thread. I ordered a single new coil pack and paid $79 (I know, too much, but I did get it quick). Replaced the old one in cyl 4 (so easy...). Test drove car and accelerated in 4th from 2200 rpm which always brought on stutter. No misfire!
ALL IS GOOD!! Thanks for everyone's input.
Well, being a DIY guy, I googled and thankfully found this thread. I ordered a single new coil pack and paid $79 (I know, too much, but I did get it quick). Replaced the old one in cyl 4 (so easy...). Test drove car and accelerated in 4th from 2200 rpm which always brought on stutter. No misfire!
ALL IS GOOD!! Thanks for everyone's input.
#138
04-25-2013, 01:57 PM
Had this problem and took it to the Honda Dealership. Was told bad catalytic converter & bad coil on #2.
Had them replace the coil (Should have looked here first!) but not the converter. $215 down the drain! Car ran fine, but now it's starting to hesitate under acceleration.
2007 Honda Fit Sport with 101,000 miles on it. Time to order the coils and try my hand at it....and to look for a thread on converters.
Had them replace the coil (Should have looked here first!) but not the converter. $215 down the drain! Car ran fine, but now it's starting to hesitate under acceleration.
2007 Honda Fit Sport with 101,000 miles on it. Time to order the coils and try my hand at it....and to look for a thread on converters.
#139
04-25-2013, 07:21 PM
Had this problem and took it to the Honda Dealership. Was told bad catalytic converter & bad coil on #2.
Had them replace the coil (Should have looked here first!) but not the converter. $215 down the drain! Car ran fine, but now it's starting to hesitate under acceleration.
2007 Honda Fit Sport with 101,000 miles on it. Time to order the coils and try my hand at it....and to look for a thread on converters.
Had them replace the coil (Should have looked here first!) but not the converter. $215 down the drain! Car ran fine, but now it's starting to hesitate under acceleration.
2007 Honda Fit Sport with 101,000 miles on it. Time to order the coils and try my hand at it....and to look for a thread on converters.
#140
04-27-2013, 10:18 AM
Coil packs were bad . . .
After YEARS of problems, and 3 independent mechanics, and 4 dealers, the 4th dealer finally said it was the coil packs, replaced them, and the problem has been resolved. Not happy with Honda USA as this should have been fixed under Warranty as several dealers failed to diagnose this problem over several years while the car was under warranty! Honda offered to pay only half.
Has anyone had Honda acknowledge this problem and cover this for them?
Has anyone had Honda acknowledge this problem and cover this for them?